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Which "Christian" religion should be your national religion?
Anglican 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Baptist 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Roman Catholicism 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Church of Christ, Scientist 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Congregationalist 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Eastern Orthodox 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Episcopalians 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Jehovah's Witness 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Lutheran 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Methodist 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Mormon/LDS 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Pentecost (any) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Presbyterian 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Puritan 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Quakers 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Russian Orthodox 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Seventh-Day Adventist 6%  6%  [ 1 ]
Unification 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Unitarian Universalist 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Other or None __________ (Please explain) 72%  72%  [ 13 ]
Total votes : 18

vermontsavant
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14 Sep 2020, 10:17 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
There’s been a Kingdom of France since at least 987.

There’s been a unified England, then U.K., since the time of Alfred the Great in the 800s.

A unified German Empire came much later—in the 19th century—but there was Prussia from about 1701. And there was a “German King” who usually served as Holy Roman Emperor from the 10th century.

Russia became fully “Russia” under Ivan the Terrible in the 16th century. Ivan himself was originally “Grand Duke of Muscovy.”

Yes on everything but the HRE was a Habsburg,so an Austrian King.


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14 Sep 2020, 10:19 pm

aghogday wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Some off topic random facts about Christianity just to pass the time until a relevant post comes along.

Most people associate Paul's Christian name as being related to his birth name Shaul/Saul because they rhyme but actually it's an unrelated coincidence.

Paulos was a Greek name meaning small or humble and was given to him by gentile Greek Christian followers because either he was humble in his service to Jesus.Or it could have because of Paul's frail or small stature,the Bible does say Paul was a handicapped person.

The Hebrew name Shaul or also Saul meant question or to ask and it is mere coincidence that it rhymes with Paulos or Paul.

What does Jesus Christ mean in English:Joshua the anointed
Greek Isus Christos,Christos meaning anointed in Greek.Which was a variant of the Hebrew,Mashiach also meaning anointed, Messiah is also a variant of Mashiach.


The Greek Isus was a Greek variant of the Aramaic colloquial Yeshua,which was a variant of the Hebrew Yehoshua or in English Joshua.

So Joshua,Yehoshua,Yeshua,Isus, Jesus all mean the same thing.

Mashiach, Messiah, Christos,Christ all mean anointed or anointed one.



From the Hebrew name יְהוֹשֻׁעַ (Yehoshu'a) meaning "YAHWEH is salvation

https://www.behindthename.com/name/joshua

Yes


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15 Sep 2020, 1:02 am

Feyokien wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
There was no unified Italy until about 1870.
1861 C.E., to be exact.  Imperial Rome fell about 1385 years earlier, in 476 C.E.  Italy re-formed as a Republic in 1946.  Thus, there is no overlap between Imperial Rome and the Republic of Italy.

Some Italians may trace their ancestry back to the Roman Empire, but Imperial Romans were not Italians.


Imperial Rome (well by that point a rump state) persisted until 1453 C.E. when it finally fell to the Ottomans. Orthodox Christians from the former Roman Empire under the Ottomans continued to refer to themselves as 'Roman' until the Roman/Greek independence movement when they opted for the Greek identity so they could receive Western European support (who also claimed the Roman identity). :wink:


Exactly.

Obviously its absurd to blame either modern Italians or modern Jews for the death of Christ. No living person of either , or of any, ethnic group, was responsible for killing anyone 2000 years ago.

A few years ago there was a lawyer from Africa who actually tried to sue for the "wrongful death of Christ" in the Hague, and he tried to sue both the modern state of Israel and the modern Italian republic. As you said-there is more actual legal and political continuity between ancient Rome and modern Greece (via the Byzantine Empire) than there is between ancient Rome and the modern state of Italy. So ...he might as well have sued Greece too!

Pretty much all modern Italians are descended from ancient Romans, but so are most modern Frenchmen, and modern Spaniards, probably most Jews, and most everybody else in the Mediterranean basin.

And Roman citizenship was expanded to include conquered peoples. So even non Romans identified as "Romans",

The point is that "Roman" doesnt exactly equal " Italian". But even if it did its still absurd to talk about modern Italians, and modern Jews, competing for the title of being "the worst Christ-killers"! :lol:



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15 Sep 2020, 1:35 am

naturalplastic wrote:
A few years ago there was a lawyer from Africa who actually tried to sue for the "wrongful death of Christ" in the Hague, and he tried to sue both the modern state of Israel and the modern Italian republic.


Thats really interesting :) So how was that case handled?



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15 Sep 2020, 1:45 am

QFT wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
A few years ago there was a lawyer from Africa who actually tried to sue for the "wrongful death of Christ" in the Hague, and he tried to sue both the modern state of Israel and the modern Italian republic.

Thats really interesting :) So how was that case handled?

Must have been hard to build a case:

John 20:1-2:

The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

No body, no crime… The defense rests, your honor!



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15 Sep 2020, 1:49 am

And even if the lawyer had won the case...what could he do with the settlement money?

It would be hard to track down Jesus's "next of kin" today. So who could they give the money too?



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15 Sep 2020, 1:56 am

naturalplastic wrote:
And even if the lawyer had won the case...what could he do with the settlement money?

It would be hard to track down Jesus's "next of kin" today. So who could they give the money too?


I understand that the outcome was ultimately a no, but I was curious how was the case actually handled? Like how long did it take for them to decline, and what were the proceedings before the ultimate no was given?



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15 Sep 2020, 2:44 am

In 2013 a lawyer from Kenya brought it before International Court of Justice in the Hague. They refused to even take it because they said they had no juristiction, because they only take cases of one state suing another state. Not individuals against a state. So that was it apparently. The case went away in 2013.

The lawyer guy said that he was "using the precedent of" a recent decision about Joan of Arc, and claimed that he thought he had a "good chance of winning". Apparently some modern person DID succeed in some kind of lawsuit about the wrongful death of Joan of Arc. But I cant seem to be able to track THAT down on the Web. So I dont know what he is was talking about there.



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15 Sep 2020, 3:15 am

The Habsburgs didn’t arrive in the HRE until around the Renaissance.

The HRE was neither holy, Roman, or an empire :wink:

They were the central figures in one of the first big conflicts in church vs state relations: the Investiture Situation. One of the main Popes in it was named Innocent.



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15 Sep 2020, 3:30 am

I voted Quaker. Such a state would have thriving financial and confectionary sectors, a commitment to truth, science, and justice, and an extremely broad range of state sanctioned beliefs including nontheism. In other words it would be a big step up on living in a Church of England country. However, I do think the state’s commitment to pacifism would quickly see it overrun either from without or, more likely, from within.

I would honestly and obviously prefer a completely secular state, but as soon as I saw Quakers listed I stopped looking for further options.



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15 Sep 2020, 3:42 am

^^^
That's sort of true
In the early times the Emperor was chosen by the pope and then in turn Emporers deposed popes.
I'm not sure off hand if the first HRE was Merovingian or Carolinian but it started with the Frank's.

But the Habsburgs were the height of the Holy Roman Empire which as you said was nor Holy,Roman or an Empire.


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15 Sep 2020, 3:47 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
The Habsburgs didn’t arrive in the HRE until around the Renaissance.

The HRE was neither holy, Roman, or an empire :wink:

They were the central figures in one of the first big conflicts in church vs state relations: the Investiture Situation. One of the main Popes in it was named Innocent.

And the last big conflict in church vs. state relations as well: The Thirty Years War (which started as a civil war within the Holy Roman Empire) which ended with the peace of Westphalia in 1648.

A lot of s*** went down in Germany before it was even Germany... But that is not germane to the topic of this thread… :P



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15 Sep 2020, 3:51 am

Any state religion tends to degenerate rather qiuckly into state-wide hypocrisy because the combination of spirituality and political power is too tempting for some kind of mighty abusers.


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15 Sep 2020, 6:03 am

Such was the “Roman” influence (both spiritual and temporal):

The HRE lasted in name (not power) until 1806. Then, the secular aspect took over, and created the German Confederation.



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15 Sep 2020, 8:27 am

Secularism, same reason as Kortie.

Nominal national religion is only as much of a problem as having a monarch head of state in the first place.

Prime minister should be allowed to convert. Bliar was enough of a liar over serious stuff without having to pretend he wasn't Catholic when it was really obvious & he "converted" as soon as he left office.


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15 Sep 2020, 8:44 am

If it came down to only me choosing a "religion" for my country, my choice would be one based solely on STEM -- Science, Technology, Engineering, and Maths.

Otherwise, I hope for a continued Secularist government and society.