Why do people still not accept homosexuality today ?

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Fnord
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07 Oct 2020, 2:45 pm

League_Girl wrote:

... Unless they take an issue with all sexualities being exposed like that, then I don't know what to call it, relationshiphobia since they are against ALL sexualities and no one is being discriminated and singled out since it's everyone.

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07 Oct 2020, 5:34 pm

Nades wrote:

I think the hyper sexuality of some in the gay community is where a lot of prejudice comes from. Seeing someone's life revolve around their sexuality (be it straight or gay) never makes for easy viewing and is hard to swallow if they really make a show of it. Sadly I noticed there is a significant minority that intentionally make a scene and push the boundaries just for the sake of it and over time it's become part of gay culture to an extent. I had a friend in school (my best friend between ages 8 to 16) and the older he got the more he embraced some of the worse aspects of gay culture and by god did he start making a scene in the end. He mellowed out a bit as he grew older but it got cringe worthy at times.

I agree but tbh at that age I'd put that down to being a cis NT guy. They're the same when it comes to chasing girls and talking about nothing but boobs. There were no openly gay kids at my school when I was 16 but there were boys who used to swap videos of naked women loudly in class and make the girls feel uncomfortable.

At a later stage like I said with my former friend, it's a lot to do with having severed ties with homophobic family in my experience/opinion. Nobody wants a family member who sleeps around with a lot of people and talks about sex a lot. But if you're not close with your family, then there's nothing to lose.

I don't care about cringiness of things. But there's a difference between acting like a tart and acting like a pantomime dame. An effeminate guy who's an extrovert? Fair enough. Girls get to act all girly and loud, no reason why guys can't do the same thing. A super sexual person who can't understand boundaries of why you don't talk about sex with everyone you meet? Immature - in teen years understandably immature but as you get older, less so. As someone gets older if they keep acting like that outside of an appropriate setting, it becomes a bit creepy tbh.

And I'm on about talking about a girl's boobs as she goes by just as much as talking about a guy's willy. Or about straight acts as much as gay ones.

Ironically I think the more homophobic society is, the more sexual the gay scene becomes and the more socially acceptable it is to be gay, the less it's all about sex. The thing about cottaging etc is, a guy can go do that and then go home to his wife and kids. He doesn't have to be openly gay or even define himself as gay. A bit different to settling down with a husband etc.

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Bradleigh
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07 Oct 2020, 7:43 pm

On the topic of accusing LGBT people of announcing their sexuality, are some of you forgetting the type of guys that have to go "no homo" over anything that might be the teeniest affectionate to another man. That is pretty much the same thing. I would say that a lot of problems that straight people have with ideas like gay marriage is they actually feel like it is an attack on being able to subtly display their heterosexuality by saying they are married. And why straight men can especially feel the need to project masculinity as they prescribe gay men as sissies, and get super angry if challenged that their super manly thing might be a little gay.

There is like a whole subculture thing called "Are The Straights Okay", that kind of pokes fun at some ridiculous straight culture.

Also, on the topic of hyper sexuality that you might find among people with same sex attraction or trans, I had actually heard an interesting explanation for this. Apparently a lot of people work through being so sexual when they are teenagers and accepted for it, teenage girl being flirty with boys or teenage boy being so with girls, and displaying the sexuality. But when a homosexual trans person was somewhat forced to repress that side when they were a teenager, it can make them live it out more when they do come out. Perhaps more so from frustration from being pent up and adults can have higher level of expectations of sexuality in general over teenagers that hardly know what they are talking about

So when people are saying that they have a problem with more sexuality in these groups, it is because they are being lagged behind in development, such as not getting healthy examples of relatable relationships when they were young (tv shows or movies that can have straight couples but not gay), or let a trans person feel like they can be attractive in parts of their development.

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goldfish21
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08 Oct 2020, 2:00 am

Fnord wrote:

goldfish21 wrote:

Because they’re jealous of all the super hot sex we get to have and they don’t.

Ahh ... but it is not all the same sex, each and every time?

:wink:

Pun

intended

Almost always.. 99.991511% of the time according to my stats. :p

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08 Oct 2020, 4:20 am

Bradleigh wrote:

A lot of repression against homosexuality certainly happened in the past. Indeed I think you're right that a lot of the reason for many in the gay community being very overtry sexual is becauae of past repression but I belive it's not really the case anymore.

As for gay marriage, I think it's just religious. I'm actually against gay marriage but not becauase I'm against homosexuality. The way I see it is that the church and government needs to be separate and obligating churches to marry gay couples goes against that principle and muddies the water. If the government starts to dictate what the church does then the church is within their rights to a mutual retort in my eyes.

I'm fully in support of a legal equivalent of gay marriage where they enjoy the same legal rights as a fully married couple and can have the equivalent of a wedding ceremony.

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08 Oct 2020, 5:03 am

Bradleigh wrote:

Also, on the topic of hyper sexuality that you might find among people with same sex attraction or trans, I had actually heard an interesting explanation for this. Apparently a lot of people work through being so sexual when they are teenagers and accepted for it, teenage girl being flirty with boys or teenage boy being so with girls, and displaying the sexuality. But when a homosexual trans person was somewhat forced to repress that side when they were a teenager, it can make them live it out more when they do come out. Perhaps more so from frustration from being pent up and adults can have higher level of expectations of sexuality in general over teenagers that hardly know what they are talking about

So when people are saying that they have a problem with more sexuality in these groups, it is because they are being lagged behind in development, such as not getting healthy examples of relatable relationships when they were young (tv shows or movies that can have straight couples but not gay), or let a trans person feel like they can be attractive in parts of their development.

I agree with this.

In my experience it's the gays who have homophobic family who end up being hyper sexual.

They were probably afraid to express it in youth.

And gays expressing sexuality in youth? At 16? That's because they're 16 yo boys. Not because they're gay. Almost all 16 yo boys are out there saying sexual stuff (and hopefully it just stops at sexual cos sometimes they go into hate or violence in order to be 'edgy'). It's a normal phase of development. When I was 16 any boy admitting that stuff about other guys at my school would be beaten up and called homophobic slurs.

Heck when I was 17 and in a more liberal school where there wasn't as much homophobia, I got to hear both about a straight boy's bdsm fetish for tying up all the girls and a bi boy's nappy fetish. They were being edgy, not respecting boundaries, being very sexual and being adolescent. As long as people grow out of it and realise it's inappropriate by the time they're proper grown ups.

I don't see what a gay man being married in a registry office or in a gay accepting church has to do with homophobic churches. I don't think we as secular people ought to be defending the rights of the homophobic churches over the rights of the gay people, but I doubt someone would want to get gay-married in one of those churches anyway. The law should allow for gay marriage but allow the church to set its own rules like it does with divorced couples.

I know so few people these days who are getting married in churches now the licenses are for all over the place. My cousin's getting married next year in an art gallery cos they both like art. I think most of the non-religious who got married in churches did it when I was a kid cos registry offices are so drab and miserable, feeling like second best and having a stigma to them.

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Bradleigh
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08 Oct 2020, 6:29 am

Nades wrote:

I would be surprised if there is not any such repression still happening, repression does not end after gay people no longer being lynched, and even marriage is allowed. You are going to have it as long as it is treated as abnormal, that adolescents will be incentivized to keep it hidden, lie to themselves, or even be unaware of themselves.

As I have mentioned before, and really fear that I am playing some identity game, I only recently recognised myself as non-binary and bi. I never felt comfortable to do the feeling sexy, or whatever the words are, when I was a teenage boy, a need to appear masculine, and I can somewhat feel a pull after my awakening in appearing androgynous. And learning that I can like dudes too, is like a whole other unraveling, that I can kind of see why some people might act more inappropriately. Such as how teenage boys get boob crazy, I did not really have that, because half my sexuality was pushed down so far that I had no clue, and I theorise made me kind of hesitant to act, as part of subconscious uncertainties, which have felt like they are lifted in recognizing them.

Nades wrote:

As for gay marriage, I think it's just religious. I'm actually against gay marriage but not becauase I'm against homosexuality. The way I see it is that the church and government needs to be separate and obligating churches to marry gay couples goes against that principle and muddies the water. If the government starts to dictate what the church does then the church is within their rights to a mutual retort in my eyes.

I'm fully in support of a legal equivalent of gay marriage where they enjoy the same legal rights as a fully married couple and can have the equivalent of a wedding ceremony.

What church are you talking about? Is there one church that gets to decide whether same sex couples can get married? The argument about one specific church in a culture that is not supposed to have an established religion, is just silly, it makes the argument of the state of being married across all cultures, different religions and a lack of a religion, is dictated by one specific branch that decided what it should be defined in the law. You might as well say that all atheists cannot get married. At least in my country, I am aware that the law allowed a church to decide if they wanted to carry out marriages under their services, not forcing all churches to do so.

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Nades
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08 Oct 2020, 6:49 am

Bradleigh wrote:

Nades wrote:

Being gay is not recognised as being abnormal anymore I think. It's not the sexual preferences of most but virtually everyone knows it's not unusual.

As for when I said church, I meant the entire branch of Christianity but it applies to any religious branch as all (as far as I know) see homosexuality as immoral. What I value in the western world is it's secularism and peer pressuring any religious group into normalising gay marriage when they oppose it causes a conflict of interest between religion and government. If religious groups decide to, without pressure, allow gay marriage then that is perfectly fine.

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08 Oct 2020, 7:15 am

Nades wrote:

Being gay is not recognised as being abnormal anymore I think. It's not the sexual preferences of most but virtually everyone knows it's not unusual.

Okay, can you point to something a gay Disney Princess? How many movies that are mainstream and aimed at kids? It is not just even after it not being seen as okay to send children to conversion camps anymore. You are still going to get a lot of people who will see a homosexual couple and will start throwing slurs at them. I think that you are being a bit presumptive about how accepted people who are part LGBT people are compared to not.

I believe that there was a story just recently where a couple of black transwomen were beaten up and robbed in the middle of the street in LA as no one stopped to help as they called out.

Nades wrote:

As for when I said church, I meant the entire branch of Christianity but it applies to any religious branch as all (as far as I know) see homosexuality as immoral. What I value in the western world is it's secularism and peer pressuring any religious group into normalising gay marriage when they oppose it causes a conflict of interest between religion and government. If religiois groups decide to, without pressure, allow gay marriage then that is perfectly fine.

See, you are kind of contradicting yourself here. You said that gay people are not recognised as abnormal anymore, and then have this paragraph about a good portion of popular religious groups see it as immoral. You don't see those things are connected, where what they are is treated more as being tolerated rather than being accepted. In these communities where a church is being treated like it the arbitrator of what is right and wrong, you don't see that it is practically the same thing as being illegal, where your friends and family will see you as a sinner?

To my knowledge, all the marriage laws did was make it legal for churches to recognise gay marriage, not threatening priests to send them to jail if they do not allow it.

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KT67
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08 Oct 2020, 7:22 am

Not all churches are homophobic. Some methodist churches for eg allow gay marriage.

Not all societies are accepting of homosexuality. Believing all churches are homophobic and all societies aren't is actually a contratiction.

Seeing something as 'not abnormal' has two meanings. 1 seeing something as moral 2 seeing something as normal. If someone disapproves of homosexuality, they don't see it as 1. It isn't the second meaning - and I'm saying that as someone who's bi so I'm not being homophobic, it's just like saying 'blue eyes are abnormal' ie not the norm.

And when I say 'not all societies', I'm talking about very British societies which my friends grew up in. So it's not purely a debate about immigration and assimilation.

Over generalisation is bad for debate and bad in general for knowledge of the world.

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Nades
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08 Oct 2020, 7:32 am

Bradleigh wrote:

Nades wrote:

Being gay is not recognised as being abnormal anymore I think. It's not the sexual preferences of most but virtually everyone knows it's not unusual.

Nades wrote:

Western society as a whole doesn't see homosexuality as immoral. Religious groups as a whole usually, if not almost always do.

I can't get into specifics because it will get incredibly long winded and the original you context of the thread was very broad anyway.

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08 Oct 2020, 9:02 am

The question does but the OP doesn't. The OP says 'some people'.

Some people have homophobic attitudes because of a mix of:
1 Homophobic religion - which isn't all religion. I'm not qualified to speak on this tbh but I will say that within homophobic faiths, I've met many different people who practice the faith but not the homophobia - even bisexual Catholics for eg.
2 Wanting grandkids. This can be as simple as not accepting your own kid is lgbt but generally being pro-LGBT. I'd say to those people that there's many ways to have kids these days and also, your kid gets to make their own reproductive choices regardless of sexuality. It's kind of an understandable feeling though esp when everyone around you is talking about their grandkids.
3 Wanting to propagate western society or humanity in general. This isn't something you can actually control and the world in general has an overpopulation problem.
4 Fear of change. Esp as someone gets older, change in society can be a scary thing. But it's an inevitable thing. I just hope when I get old my fears are still technological in nature.
5 Fear of difference. Adults with that attitude should grow up. It's nobody else's business how 'cringy' something or someone is. I don't understand furries for eg. I don't waste my time laughing at them or trying to change them - I leave them alone. This is something which is even present within the community, the idea that someone is a 'good queer' because they're not stereotypical and are more 'normal'.
6 Fear of promiscuity. These people have never heard the phrase 'lesbian bed death'. I'd say that becomes your problem either when people are spreading disease (like in the early days of AIDS) or cheating on you. Guys cheat on guys, girls cheat on girls, girls cheat on guys, guys cheat on girls. It's not a gay thing.
7 Fear of AIDS. AIDS can spread from any unprotected sex. I'd argue that in the beginning, the problem was gay men having no other reason to wear a condom. Not going to get pregnant from anal sex with another man - so why wear one if AIDS doesn't exist?

There's prob other reasons but I can't think of them.

OP does clarify and say 'some people'.

This is def an attitude 'some people' have.

I'm specifically discussing the attitude amongst adults because when it comes to secondary school kids, the answer is simple, kids like conforming and kids are mean. Not all kids but enough NT kids where it's a pattern.

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XFilesGeek
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08 Oct 2020, 5:43 pm

No churches are being forced to perform gay weddings.

Claiming such is just ignorant.

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08 Oct 2020, 7:02 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:

No churches are being forced to perform gay weddings...

As far as I can tell, you are correct. Current law in California allows church leaders to decide for themselves whom they will and will not marry away from church property. Depending on the church, it is likely a separate body of Elders who make the decision, but only regarding the use of church property.

There are churches in the area that have simply decided church property is off-limits for ALL weddings, and left it up to the discretion of the individual pastors as for whom they will perform a wedding ceremony elsewhere.

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09 Oct 2020, 1:54 am

XFilesGeek wrote:

No churches are being forced to perform gay weddings.

Claiming such is just ignorant.

I said "if", not that they are. It's in my eyes a realistic hypothetical of religous groups being forced to carry our marriages they dont aprove of that could do more harm than good and will start to cause issues with mantaining a secular society.

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09 Oct 2020, 3:16 am

Nades wrote:

XFilesGeek wrote:

No churches are being forced to perform gay weddings.

Claiming such is just ignorant.

Except that they're not, and ridiculous hypotheticals aren't a good basis for denying a group of people their rights.

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