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Separation Of Church and State takes a big hit

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Sweetleaf
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30 Jun 2022, 2:05 pm

Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The overturning of Roe v Wade was a years-long process. The Pro-Life people used the legal system well.  So did Thurgood Marshall and his compatriots when it came to the 1954 Supreme Court decision—which overturned an 1896 Supreme Court decision.  Jurisprudence is a dynamic thing, despite the desires of conservatives like Clarence Thomas.
Unless SCOTUS become majority liberal in out lifetimes, we are unlikely to see Roe v Wade reinstated.


Could federal rights to abortion be legislated without the supreme court?


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kraftiekortie
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30 Jun 2022, 2:06 pm

Biden is trying to do just that.



magz
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30 Jun 2022, 2:36 pm

 ! magz wrote:
Several posts have been removed.
By all means, debate and exchange opinions, but try to avoid judgements on each other.


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Fnord
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30 Jun 2022, 2:37 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The overturning of Roe v Wade was a years-long process. The Pro-Life people used the legal system well.  So did Thurgood Marshall and his compatriots when it came to the 1954 Supreme Court decision—which overturned an 1896 Supreme Court decision.  Jurisprudence is a dynamic thing, despite the desires of conservatives like Clarence Thomas.
Unless SCOTUS becomes majority liberal in our lifetimes, we are unlikely to see Roe v Wade reinstated.
Could federal rights to abortion be legislated without the supreme court?
Presidential decrees can be negated by later Presidential decrees.  Pro-Choice people want a permanent reinstatement.



kraftiekortie
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30 Jun 2022, 7:14 pm

Even so, it can be a temporary stopgap measure. It's better than nothing.

It's not likely that a subsequent Democratic President would issue a decree to negate the previous decree.

I feel like the Republicans are digging themselves a big hole with this January 6th thing. If 50 million people vote Republican, rather than 74 million, in 2024, the Republicans would lose by a landslide.



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30 Jun 2022, 8:13 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
I feel like the Republicans are digging themselves a big hole with this January 6th thing. If 50 million people vote Republican, rather than 74 million, in 2024, the Republicans would lose by a landslide.


Their position on this is probably not going to attract many non-Republicans but a cult is going to cult.



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01 Jul 2022, 3:08 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
Even so, it can be a temporary stopgap measure. It's better than nothing.

It's not likely that a subsequent Democratic President would issue a decree to negate the previous decree.

I feel like the Republicans are digging themselves a big hole with this January 6th thing. If 50 million people vote Republican, rather than 74 million, in 2024, the Republicans would lose by a landslide.


Between 1/6 and the overturn of Roe (and the prospect of other rulings being overturned), the question is whether the GOP will still exist after 2024.


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Tim_Tex
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01 Jul 2022, 3:17 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The overturning of Roe v Wade was a years-long process. The Pro-Life people used the legal system well.  So did Thurgood Marshall and his compatriots when it came to the 1954 Supreme Court decision—which overturned an 1896 Supreme Court decision.  Jurisprudence is a dynamic thing, despite the desires of conservatives like Clarence Thomas.
Unless SCOTUS become majority liberal in out lifetimes, we are unlikely to see Roe v Wade reinstated.


Could federal rights to abortion be legislated without the supreme court?


The best solution would likely be a national referendum for a federal amendment. 70% of the population supports abortion rights, so that wouldn't be an issue. It's all about getting that turnout.

Ireland tried a similar referendum recently and it passed with flying colors--in a country that is over 80% Catholic. It can be done.


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01 Jul 2022, 4:46 am

Tim_Tex wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Fnord wrote:
kraftiekortie wrote:
The overturning of Roe v Wade was a years-long process. The Pro-Life people used the legal system well.  So did Thurgood Marshall and his compatriots when it came to the 1954 Supreme Court decision—which overturned an 1896 Supreme Court decision.  Jurisprudence is a dynamic thing, despite the desires of conservatives like Clarence Thomas.
Unless SCOTUS become majority liberal in out lifetimes, we are unlikely to see Roe v Wade reinstated.


Could federal rights to abortion be legislated without the supreme court?


The best solution would likely be a national referendum for a federal amendment. 70% of the population supports abortion rights, so that wouldn't be an issue. It's all about getting that turnout.

Ireland tried a similar referendum recently and it passed with flying colors--in a country that is over 80% Catholic. It can be done.


I like this idea, but the pro life crowd would claim it was rigged if they lost. :lol:



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01 Jul 2022, 8:12 am

SpiralingCrow wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
The best solution would likely be a national referendum for a federal amendment. 70% of the population supports abortion rights, so that wouldn't be an issue.  It's all about getting that turnout.  Ireland tried a similar referendum recently and it passed with flying colors--in a country that is over 80% Catholic.  It can be done.
I like this idea, but the pro life crowd would claim it was rigged if they lost.
Correction: The pro-birth crowd would claim it was rigged if they lost.  Anyone who claims to be against abortion and yet supports assault weapon ownership, war, and the execution of prison inmates cannot, by definition, be pro-life.



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01 Jul 2022, 8:21 am

Fnord wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
The best solution would likely be a national referendum for a federal amendment. 70% of the population supports abortion rights, so that wouldn't be an issue.  It's all about getting that turnout.  Ireland tried a similar referendum recently and it passed with flying colors--in a country that is over 80% Catholic.  It can be done.
I like this idea, but the pro life crowd would claim it was rigged if they lost.
Correction: The pro-birth crowd would claim it was rigged if they lost.  Anyone who claims to be against abortion and yet supports assault weapon ownership, war, and the execution of prison inmates cannot, by definition, be pro-life.


I can't argue with that. "Pro-Life" is just what the call themselves, even though it is a gross misnomer.



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01 Jul 2022, 8:31 am

SpiralingCrow wrote:
Fnord wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
The best solution would likely be a national referendum for a federal amendment. 70% of the population supports abortion rights, so that wouldn't be an issue.  It's all about getting that turnout.  Ireland tried a similar referendum recently and it passed with flying colors--in a country that is over 80% Catholic.  It can be done.
I like this idea, but the pro life crowd would claim it was rigged if they lost.
Correction: The pro-birth crowd would claim it was rigged if they lost.  Anyone who claims to be against abortion and yet supports assault weapon ownership, war, and the execution of prison inmates cannot, by definition, be pro-life.
I can't argue with that. "Pro-Life" is just what the call themselves, even though it is a gross misnomer.
When you get right down to it, the argument is between the "Pro-Abortion" and the "Pro-Birth" crowds.

The labels "Pro-Choice" and "Pro-Life" just make the two groups seem more noble.



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01 Jul 2022, 8:47 am

I still think "Pro-Choice" is the most appropriate name. There are plenty of woman who may not or would never choose to have an abortion, but still strongly feel each woman should have the right to choose for themselves. Pro-Choice does not necessarily mean Pro-Abortion.



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01 Jul 2022, 8:54 am

SpiralingCrow wrote:
I still think "Pro-Choice" is the most appropriate name. There are plenty of woman who may not or would never choose to have an abortion, but still strongly feel each woman should have the right to choose for themselves. Pro-Choice does not necessarily mean Pro-Abortion.
You do have a point.

The ones you described are definitely "Pro-Choice", but the ones screaming only for reinstatement of a woman's right to abortion are definitely "Pro-Abortion".

And maybe there are some who truly believe that abortion, the death penalty, and the private ownership of assault weapons should be banned -- they are definitely "Pro-Life".  It is the ones who scream only for an end to abortion that are definitely "Pro-Birth".

Maybe I am splitting this hair too finely, but that is how I see it.



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01 Jul 2022, 10:35 am

Fnord wrote:
SpiralingCrow wrote:
I still think "Pro-Choice" is the most appropriate name. There are plenty of woman who may not or would never choose to have an abortion, but still strongly feel each woman should have the right to choose for themselves. Pro-Choice does not necessarily mean Pro-Abortion.
You do have a point.

The ones you described are definitely "Pro-Choice", but the ones screaming only for reinstatement of a woman's right to abortion are definitely "Pro-Abortion".

And maybe there are some who truly believe that abortion, the death penalty, and the private ownership of assault weapons should be banned -- they are definitely "Pro-Life".  It is the ones who scream only for an end to abortion that are definitely "Pro-Birth".

Maybe I am splitting this hair too finely, but that is how I see it.


Pro- or anti-legality?


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magz
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01 Jul 2022, 11:34 am

SpiralingCrow wrote:
I still think "Pro-Choice" is the most appropriate name. There are plenty of woman who may not or would never choose to have an abortion, but still strongly feel each woman should have the right to choose for themselves. Pro-Choice does not necessarily mean Pro-Abortion.
That's me.
Ok, I can't really say "never". If it was abort or die, I would probably abort, my already existing kids need me alive.

I just think, based on what I know about Poland where I live, that making abortion illegal does not result in less abortions.
Long-term support saves lives, both unborn and born. If we really care about unborn babies, multi-dimensional, reliable support for parents in difficult situation is how we can help.


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