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cyberdad
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25 Aug 2022, 12:32 am

Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Imagine women rights being called woke back in the days, I will ask "and whats wrong with including women in work places and letting the men be stay at home dads and women being the breadwinner, what's wrong with getting rid of gender roles? What's wrong with women being allowed to make their own choices without the men making it for them? If this is woke, what's wrong with it, how is this a bad thing?"


What are these "women" you keep referring to, bigot?


Are you serious?



League_Girl
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25 Aug 2022, 1:18 am

cyberdad wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Imagine women rights being called woke back in the days, I will ask "and whats wrong with including women in work places and letting the men be stay at home dads and women being the breadwinner, what's wrong with getting rid of gender roles? What's wrong with women being allowed to make their own choices without the men making it for them? If this is woke, what's wrong with it, how is this a bad thing?"


What are these "women" you keep referring to, bigot?


Are you serious?



If me pointing out oppression women used to have makes me a bigot, so be it.

As a woman, I feel we have more freedom now and I don't feel oppressed. If I want to see real oppression women have, go look at Iran or Iraq and how they're treated if they're raped. At least in the US you won't go to jail or be sentenced to death if a man rapes you.


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25 Aug 2022, 1:58 am

Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Imagine women rights being called woke back in the days, I will ask "and whats wrong with including women in work places and letting the men be stay at home dads and women being the breadwinner, what's wrong with getting rid of gender roles? What's wrong with women being allowed to make their own choices without the men making it for them? If this is woke, what's wrong with it, how is this a bad thing?"


What are these "women" you keep referring to, bigot?


Hm, I'll confess to being totally lost as to your intended meaning. I suspect you're trying to make some smarta$$ reference and I'm just not connecting enough dots to get it.


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25 Aug 2022, 2:20 am

I think ... when advancing necessary change, there are always people who take it too far, or use and and abuse whatever the concept of the day is for their own purposes. But instead of focusing on the fanatics that push past the edge, I find it important to understand what it is that actually should get changed.

So, as LeagueGirl pointed out, one thing that had to change 100 years ago was the limited roles society assigned to women. Limiting the roles of women was not only overly constricting for women, and made it easier for women to be abused, but it also meant there was a lot of wasted and under-utilized talent that might have otherwise more readily been applied to the benefit of society.

Today, I do believe it is important for people to recognize how history forms the present, and some injustices continue past the removal of the obvious. I also believe it is important for people to recognize that people should be allowed to be who they are, instead of hiding their reality because society has too limited a norm. But what this all means to how we act and talk on a day to day basis is still evolving and getting figured out. And, at times, that process is going to go a little far and be a little too bizarre. The problem is, attacking the silliness is, too often, a cover for and a method of preventing the necessary change.


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cyberdad
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25 Aug 2022, 3:00 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
IThe problem is, attacking the silliness is, too often, a cover for and a method of preventing the necessary change.


Everything should be on a case by case basis. There are those who use social justice as a smokescreen to entrap people. But the right magnify those situations out of proportion



cyberdad
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25 Aug 2022, 3:02 am

League_Girl wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Imagine women rights being called woke back in the days, I will ask "and whats wrong with including women in work places and letting the men be stay at home dads and women being the breadwinner, what's wrong with getting rid of gender roles? What's wrong with women being allowed to make their own choices without the men making it for them? If this is woke, what's wrong with it, how is this a bad thing?"


What are these "women" you keep referring to, bigot?


Are you serious?



If me pointing out oppression women used to have makes me a bigot, so be it.

As a woman, I feel we have more freedom now and I don't feel oppressed. If I want to see real oppression women have, go look at Iran or Iraq and how they're treated if they're raped. At least in the US you won't go to jail or be sentenced to death if a man rapes you.


Either that or Doxxy chose "death mode" with the mods.



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25 Aug 2022, 9:56 am

Quote:
So, as LeagueGirl pointed out, one thing that had to change 100 years ago was the limited roles society assigned to women. Limiting the roles of women was not only overly constricting for women, and made it easier for women to be abused, but it also meant there was a lot of wasted and under-utilized talent that might have otherwise more readily been applied to the benefit of society


How Cal Hockley treated Rose in the Titanic was actually the norm then but today these men would be called misoginists. People like Rose would be called leftist and SJW and woke.

In the American Girl books with Samantha, she wanted to earn her own money but yet she was expected to stay home and have a guy take care of her like she is a child. Her grandma raising her thought it was ridiculous she wanted to earn her own money. People like Samantha and her Aunt Cornelia changed how things are today for women. These women would be called woke and leftists as well. Now today any woman out there that just wants a piggy bank and not work and have buy her everything would be called a gold digger. These women are known as radical feminists and are into the female dating strategy and they do want to live like it's the 1950s. But yet they want their own income but are still give me give me type for the guy.


So I will never understand how wokism is bad when it has made good changes. I guess people are afraid of change because they are so used to it. I am sure people felt the same way then when things were changing. Racists were mad when the slaves were freed or when Jim Crow laws ended. But hey, ending slavery would be wokism and ending Jim Crow laws.


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ASPartOfMe
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25 Aug 2022, 10:23 am

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
But the main idea is that classic western liberalism is inherently racist and has been from the get-go, so all vestiges of it need to be replaced. All American history needs to be re-understood in this context. It is a very Orwellian revolution in that the key technique is changing the meaning of words and terms so that the opponents can be labeled racist(or some other ist/phobic) no matter what they say and how they say it.


The establishment of western liberalism was not the "natural" evolution of the "superior" western mind in the age of the renaissance. This was always a myth. The renaissance philosophers, scientists, scholars and artists were members of the aristocracy and maintained a firm belief in casteism, servitude and nobility. They (of course) believed in the inherent superiority of Europeans. Not surprisingly the renaissance coincided with the rise of imperialism, military expansion, colonialism and slavery.

The roots of liberalism—fundemental belief in individual freedom, in the fundamental moral equality of individuals, in a legal system based on equality, and in a representative form of government befitting a society of free people—all these were pioneered by Christian thinkers of the Middle Ages who drew on the moral revolution carried out by the early Church. These philosophers and canon lawyers.

It is therefore not surprising that the revulsion toward popular conservative views in western democracies such as the superiority of the white man, the enslavement of humans and who opposed the subsequent emancipation of women and the poor began with revolutionary christians. Not the MAGA fake christians who Jesus would have reviled if he came back. Revolutionary christians who fought for the freedom of all people such as the quakers, jesuits and Pentecostals (other similar groups not only bought equality in western democracies but set up missionaries in colonial empires protecting the poor from exploitation, uplifting human rights, using donations to build hospitals and most importantly bringing education to poor village people. Many of the educational institutions in Asia were started by catholic and protestant missionaries.

So unfortunately your claims that institutions that have their roots in western liberalism believed in equality of all men and were not racist is a lie. The only people who protected the rights and subsequent emancipation of slaves and who fought in the trenches against organisation racism were christian groups.

I'm not even a practicing christian but I'm not ignorant of the contribution of christians in stamping out institutional racism . The founding fathers of America who built the foundations of democracy in America were actually evil. They were a product of their time and when they spoke of "free men" they defined human as European. So therefore the foundations of the institutions in western democracies are infact inherently racist. This is a fact and I am a little surprised why somebody as intelligent as yourself is so anxious to buy into this anti-woke crap to the extent you would re-invent history??

All you proved is what we know, politicians are hypocrites. That politicians then and now practice the opposite of what they preached does not make what they preached evil. Wokes conclude that since so many of the people that founded these ideas were racist the ideas are both racist and a smokescreen for racism. What you did prove is that “Christian Classical Liberalism” is a more accurate name then “Western Classic Liberalism”. More accurate is the key. “Western Classical Liberalism” is not a lie. The Christians who thought up those ideas lived in what we now call the “western world”. Despite its flaws naming things after locations they are believed to have come from is common practice. If it was an autistic world it would probably be different, but it isn’t.


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25 Aug 2022, 10:34 am

Uhmmm… “ you proved is what we know, politicians are hypocrites. That politicians then and now practice the opposite of what they preached does not make what they preached evil.”

When you are in a position that can effect thousands of people , And it is suppose to be a public office .
The degree of responsibility for your public words become very pertinent for the lives of many people.
And they generally like to base decisions for the public faith in these people ,Related to things that they are told .
So perhaps the definition of evil in this statement needs to be expanded upon.?


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25 Aug 2022, 10:46 am

League_Girl wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Imagine women rights being called woke back in the days, I will ask "and whats wrong with including women in work places and letting the men be stay at home dads and women being the breadwinner, what's wrong with getting rid of gender roles? What's wrong with women being allowed to make their own choices without the men making it for them? If this is woke, what's wrong with it, how is this a bad thing?"


What are these "women" you keep referring to, bigot?


Are you not aware of how women used to be treated back in the days? We couldn't even vote till 1920 for example. Imagine if the term woke was being used back in the days for women rights women were fighting for?

They were called a lot worse then woke back then. More importantly things were done to them that were a lot worse then being called bad names.


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25 Aug 2022, 10:53 am

DW_a_mom wrote:
babybird wrote:
Mona Pereth wrote:
babybird wrote:
OK, I always took Woke to be a more punishing, extreme version of Political Correctness.

I don't really fear change as long as it is progressive but I can't see how a political movement that seeks to punish freedom of thought, expression and human emotion can be at all progressive.

First off, who are you worried about being punished? Politicians, entertainment celebrities, and other major public figures? Or ordinary people?

Politicians, etc., have always been fair game.

As for ordinary people being "punished," that's a real and growing problem these days, but I see it as being primarily a consequence of the structure of today's major social media, not a result of any political ideology. Lots of people are getting "punished" or otherwise harassed these days, and not just for political reasons. (See my own page of warnings about online harassment.)


It worries me that at some point we will all be punished in a sense that we will all have to adhere to a particular way of thinking, speaking and feeling as a result of wokism. I'm not just talking about having to tone down your use of language in public. I'm talking about a restriction of language and a uniformity of thought. So I don't mean being punished as an individual. I'm talking about society as a whole.

Maybe my imagination is running away with itself but I can see its already happening. I believe its got worse over the last couple of years. Either that or I've just been in an unfortunate situation in my own personal life.


All society as a whole (there are always outliers) wants when you do wrong is for you to own up to being imperfect. To maybe not understanding something. To be willing to do the work to understand why they want to censor you. Repeat the line, "I am a work in progress." That is all that is expected of any of us: to recognize that maybe we don't know all we think we know. Despite the spin in the media and the screaming of partisans, it really is that simple: recognize that you don't know everything you think you know, and be willing to listen. Come across as sincere in that, and all is good.


Yes I understand that and thank you. I'm never above apologising when I make a mistake because I'm still learning and I do make a lot of mistakes.


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25 Aug 2022, 11:57 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Dox47 wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Imagine women rights being called woke back in the days, I will ask "and whats wrong with including women in work places and letting the men be stay at home dads and women being the breadwinner, what's wrong with getting rid of gender roles? What's wrong with women being allowed to make their own choices without the men making it for them? If this is woke, what's wrong with it, how is this a bad thing?"


What are these "women" you keep referring to, bigot?


Are you not aware of how women used to be treated back in the days? We couldn't even vote till 1920 for example. Imagine if the term woke was being used back in the days for women rights women were fighting for?

They were called a lot worse then woke back then. More importantly things were done to them that were a lot worse then being called bad names.



OMG bigot. (Being sarcastic here as a reference to Dox47's response to me)


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Dox47
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25 Aug 2022, 12:04 pm

Apparently you unenlightened savages don't realize that "women" is an offensive term that reinforces heteropatriarchy, and that using it is literally violence.


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25 Aug 2022, 12:27 pm

I don't know what the world has come to when I don't even know how to address a female counterpart.

I'm female and I don't mind if a man calls me "girl". I doesn't mean anything to me as I know that he's not being disrespectful, it's usually a colloquial thing. I do it myself if I'm watching female sports, I'll shout "go on girl". But when I watched the women's European cup final the other month there was a whole debate the next day about how we're supposed to address them. Apparently it's not even OK to call it ladies football either.

I think I'll stick to watching horse racing it's so much more simpler.


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25 Aug 2022, 1:19 pm

babybird wrote:
I think I'll stick to watching horse racing it's so much more simpler.


Just don't refer to them as old nags, or you'll be in trouble again. ;-)


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25 Aug 2022, 1:30 pm

Radish wrote:
babybird wrote:
I think I'll stick to watching horse racing it's so much more simpler.


Just don't refer to them as old nags, or you'll be in trouble again. ;-)


Naaaayyyyy!


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