Jihad is it right or wrong?
iamnotaparakeet
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IMO Muslims and the media sanitise what the Koran actually says, so as not to look too extreme or racist or incite anti moslem feelings.
If what you say is correct, that Jews are "believers", why does Allah (remember the Koran are the words of Allah):
[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
[5.82] Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.
Christians are said to be polytheists, because of the Holy Trinity.
And while the Koran says there is no compulsion in religion, the only choice is between following Allah and Shaitan (Satan). If you do not follow Allah, you follow Shaitan and are an enemy.
[2.256] There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error; therefore, whoever disbelieves in the Shaitan and believes in Allah he indeed has laid hold on the firmest handle, which shall not break off, and Allah is Hearing, Knowing.
[2.257] Allah is the guardian of those who believe. He brings them out of the darkness into the light; and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are Shaitans who take them out of the light into the darkness; they are the inmates of the fire, in it they shall abide.
And this brings it down to whether the text should be read as written or misinterpreted to fit certain western ideologies.
And those misenterpretations would be .......
That could also apply to the Bible, wouldn't it?
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And those misenterpretations would be .......
That could also apply to the Bible, wouldn't it?
No. Christians believe the Bible to be the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, .. et. al.
They are the words of men who retell what they saw and heard and believe, and so can be interpreted by us to put it in context or debate what they meant.
The Koran is "The infallible word of Allah" and is not open to interpretation.
That could also apply to the Bible, wouldn't it?
No. Christians believe the Bible to be the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, .. et. al.
They are the words of men who retell what they saw and heard and believe, and so can be interpreted by us to put it in context or debate what they meant.
The Koran is "The infallible word of Allah" and is not open to interpretation.
Some Christians do say that about the Bible, and some Muslums do not say that about the Q'ran.
_________________
"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
- Emerson
iamnotaparakeet
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That could also apply to the Bible, wouldn't it?
No. Christians believe the Bible to be the words of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, .. et. al.
They are the words of men who retell what they saw and heard and believe, and so can be interpreted by us to put it in context or debate what they meant.
The Koran is "The infallible word of Allah" and is not open to interpretation.
Some Christians do say that about the Bible, and some Muslums do not say that about the Q'ran.
Would you mind naming a few Imams who you have heard this from?
They are the words of men who retell what they saw and heard and believe, and so can be interpreted by us to put it in context or debate what they meant.
The Koran is "The infallible word of Allah" and is not open to interpretation.
Some Christians do say that about the Bible, and some Muslums do not say that about the Q'ran.
Would you mind naming a few Imams who you have heard this from?
No, I'm sorry, I can't name any moderate Imans anymore than I can name some fundamentalist Christians, but I know there are some.
_________________
"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
- Emerson
iamnotaparakeet
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Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
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They are the words of men who retell what they saw and heard and believe, and so can be interpreted by us to put it in context or debate what they meant.
The Koran is "The infallible word of Allah" and is not open to interpretation.
Some Christians do say that about the Bible, and some Muslums do not say that about the Q'ran.
Would you mind naming a few Imams who you have heard this from?
No, I'm sorry, I can't name any moderate Imans anymore than I can name some fundamentalist Christians, but I know there are some.
I can't name any moderate Imams or liberal ones either. To help your list of fundamentalist Christians, try Dr. Jay L. Wile, Dr. Russel D. Humphreys, Dr. John Morris, Dr. Irwin A. Moon, Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, Dr. Carl Wieland, and more. None of whom promote violence or forcing views on other people.
Would you mind naming a few Imams who you have heard this from?
No, I'm sorry, I can't name any moderate Imans anymore than I can name some fundamentalist Christians, but I know there are some.
I can't name any moderate Imams or liberal ones either. To help your list of fundamentalist Christians, try Dr. Jay L. Wile, Dr. Russel D. Humphreys, Dr. John Morris, Dr. Irwin A. Moon, Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, Dr. Carl Wieland, and more. None of whom promote violence or forcing views on other people.
There are fundamentalist Christians that do this. They're called the Ku Klux Klan.
Would you have the belief imposed upon us that Muslums (or any other group for that matter) are all alike?
_________________
"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
- Emerson
iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
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Would you mind naming a few Imams who you have heard this from?
No, I'm sorry, I can't name any moderate Imans anymore than I can name some fundamentalist Christians, but I know there are some.
I can't name any moderate Imams or liberal ones either. To help your list of fundamentalist Christians, try Dr. Jay L. Wile, Dr. Russel D. Humphreys, Dr. John Morris, Dr. Irwin A. Moon, Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, Dr. Carl Wieland, and more. None of whom promote violence or forcing views on other people.
There are fundamentalist Christians that do this. They're called the Ku Klux Klan.
Would you have the belief imposed upon us that Muslums (or any other group for that matter) are alike?
KKK are not Christians whether they claim to be or not. Can't say that for sure, but at the least they are ignorant of the Bible.
Muslims aren't all alike, no. But those who take the Qu'ran seriously aren't not to be discounted on the grounds of personality differences.
KKK are not Christians whether they claim to be or not. Can't say that for sure, but at the least they are ignorant of the Bible.
Don't you just HATE the divisiveness which
makes the supposedly loving Christian throw
out those who claim the same allegiance, just
because a few beliefs don't quite match?
Are there things in the Koran that conflict or seem to conflict? I would say sure. I don't subscribe to it. I think all large, complex scriptures contain errors and conflicts. I just think it should be given a fair treatment.
Yeah, Muslims believe there is one true god, the God of Abraham. All else is the devil. So the Jews, Christians and Muslims follow that God to various degrees, not always in tune with the latest revelations. Which is the same thing that the Christians believe about the Jews - right God, outdated notions, but grandfathered in as long as they keep the original contract.
I disagree that the Koran is inherently biased towards violence against Jews and Christians - there are passages that call for their protection, and some that warn against the errors of these groups. Things that can be used to justify harsh policies, and things that counsel against that. And through history, we have seen reasonably good and benevolent Muslim governments, and others that are despotic and evil. When the Christians were purging Europe of Jews, they sought refuge in the Middle East and North Europe. At other times, it has been the other way around. It is not a question of a linear, irreversible progress and 'them' being behind 'us'. History is cyclical; no matter how advanced a culture or religion becomes, it can regress.
And how do you sanitise the injunction in Genesis "Suffer not a witch to live"? If that is literally the word of God, then all Jews and Christians should be out killing Wiccans and Hindu astrologers and Native Americans shamans that refuse to convert. I personally believe that such passages are in error. I don't believe it makes all Christianity or Judaism inherently violent nor does it make all Christians or Jews suspect. Because, in spite of what it says and the fact that some Jews and Christians have practiced it, most feel safe in ignoring it. Just like they ignore similar passages in Deuteronomy, and other laws that just don't make sense.
As far as the trinity being a form of polytheism ... eh? That is pretty obvious even to secular scholars of religion. It is a Greek mystical doctrine that made its way into Christianity, just like Roman Saturnalia turned into Christmass with Yule logs, and other pagan spring fertility rituals with eggs and rabbits were incorporated in as accessories to Easter. Some Christian purists get their panties in a knot about Easter bunnies and Halloween being Shaitan's entry to our childrens' souls, but most just enjoy it as a cultural garnish that need not interfere with the message of Christ. Good for most Christians, shame on the fundamentalists, out there trying to scare people into a contribution.
Virgin birth? Call me a skeptic, although Muslims accept it as a miracle that happened, and accept Jesus as a prophet who was erroneously exalted to status of God by some followers after his death. Muslims are encouraged to study and emulate the life of Christ, but they believe that the New Testament contains serious errors and cannot be read literally. And they don't worship Jesus as God, they merely revere him as a human messenger that served God.
And the distinctions between God the Father and God the Holy Ghost? No priest or pastor could ever explain that in a way I could understand. But it does make sense when seen as an invention of the Greek trinitarians, with their mystic triangles that seek to balance the universe in the same way that Pythagoras and his Hindu predecessors divided the world into 3 interlocked Doshas and a tripartite yantra.
Last edited by monty on 18 Sep 2007, 8:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
No, I'm sorry, I can't name any moderate Imans anymore than I can name some fundamentalist Christians, but I know there are some.
I can't name any moderate Imams or liberal ones either. To help your list of fundamentalist Christians, try Dr. Jay L. Wile, Dr. Russel D. Humphreys, Dr. John Morris, Dr. Irwin A. Moon, Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, Dr. Carl Wieland, and more. None of whom promote violence or forcing views on other people.
There are fundamentalist Christians that do this. They're called the Ku Klux Klan.
Would you have the belief imposed upon us that Muslums (or any other group for that matter) are alike?
KKK are not Christians whether they claim to be or not. Can't say that for sure, but at the least they are ignorant of the Bible.
It could be argued that Muslum extremists are not Muslum and that they are ignorant of the Q'ran, or that they pick and choose the parts of the Q'ran that support their position, just as the KKK will pick and choose the parts of the Bible that support their position..
_________________
"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
- Emerson
Christians should be held responsible for abortion clinic bombers? We shouldn't take intent into account when enforcing the rules, only outcomes?
_________________
"The cordial quality of pear or plum
Rises as gladly in the single tree
As in the whole orchards resonant with bees."
- Emerson
