Why Do people Promote the idea that Science is a religion?

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MissConstrue
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07 May 2008, 4:55 pm

Taimaat wrote:

I know people like to try and claim that science is not a religion, but to me it seems it is. You have fundamentalist materialist atheists banging the science books about their evolution theory as if it is some fact about how the universe actually works. You have rules that are arbitrary decided by “experts” (the science equivalent of priests) who got that way by living it up in ivory tower academia making rules about “how the universe works” based almost entirely on some random hypothesis they got into their head that seems to work over and over again. But you have to questions two big things about it.

1)Where exactly do hypothesis come from in the first place.

2)How does this answer the big question of what my purpose in life is?

1. Ever heard of Agnosticism? A good question would be Ignosticism. What is the true defintion of gods, or God in terms of people's personal belief.

2. Can't answere that one since it's all philosophical to me. Unless you mean how life came to be physically.

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07 May 2008, 8:45 pm

snake321 wrote:

Odin wrote:

snake321 wrote:

just another big reason why an atheist *believes* they are progressive and open minded, an agnostic is a thousand times more progressive and open minded than an atheist, because an agnostic does not put "faith" into an establishment, and an agnostic is not afraid to admit they do not know everything.

I might do an "atheists vs. agnostics" thread later.

Most atheists (including myself) ARE also agnostics.

agnostic = lack of (a-) knowledge (-gnosis)
atheist = lack of (a-) belief in divinity (-theism)

The two terms do not conflict.

Wrong, many atheist are just as post-militant about denying the possibility of any deeper non-material or "super natural" possibilities, as christians are about supporting them.
The slightest mention of any theory which suggests that there may be an afterlife, or their may be a soul, even in it's spoken from a theoretical scientific perspective, gets laughed at and cut down before even being given a fair chance among hardline atheists. And, what if some of that "super natural" sh** ended up being true? What if there is some form of afterlife? The religion on modern science (which doesn't even follow the scientific method) would never let people discover it if it were true.
The main difference between a christian or muslim fanatic and a scientific fanatic ideologically are that a religious fanatic grabs onto the unknown or "super natural" too hard, scientists grab onto the known or "natural" too hard. Problem there is, who decides what is natural? How can you prove what is natural beyond our 5 senses? I'm not trying to put out some post modernist crap, but if there is some sort of afterlife, some sort of deeper reality, well then that could impact our lives here, how we live life, etc.
You see I am taking a more agnostic approach to this, not an atheist approach, but an skeptical, agnostic approach.

If something "supernatural" turns out to be true and explained scientifically it isn't "supernatural" anymore.

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Odin
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07 May 2008, 8:49 pm

Escuerd wrote:

I think the entire point of Odin's post was that the term "atheist" as he (and many, if not most others) apply it to themselves refers to lack of belief in gods rather than to any explicitly held position beyond that. It's common then to apply that to the same absence of belief they have in, say, jackalopes. I.e., it's a possibility, but one for which the evidence is thus far insufficient to conclude that it's true.

Exactly. People should not confuse A-theism (lack of belief in God) with the narrower term ANTI-theism (believing there is no God).

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D1nk0
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07 May 2008, 8:49 pm

Hey Ragtime, will the Fact that the Earth is actually Not A Flat Disc be disproven sometime in the future with "new evidence"??????????? :roll:

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07 May 2008, 8:50 pm

The Earth is not a flat disc. It's round.

Why the eye-rolling, D1nko?

jfrmeister
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07 May 2008, 11:47 pm

slowmutant wrote:

The Earth is not a flat disc. It's round.

Why the eye-rolling, D1nko?

The bible says it has 4 corners. The earth is square... the bible says so and the bible is never wrong. :roll:

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D1nk0
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08 May 2008, 12:47 am

slowmutant wrote:

The Earth is not a flat disc. It's round.

Why the eye-rolling, D1nko?

Its called sarcasm slowmutant

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08 May 2008, 2:06 am

References to Earth having four corners were figurative. Any rectangular 2D map of the Earth has four corners, but the planet itself is spherical. Some Bible passages don't make sense when interpreted literally.

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08 May 2008, 8:21 am

Sedaka wrote:

it's not enough to argue against evolution cause god says it doesn't work that way nor is it probably wise to jeopardize your soul just because religion offers no facts.

Well, my religion does offer facts, but yes, there is some informed faith involved.
(That Christianity requires "blind faith" is a popular misconception,
because when God comes through for you over and over again,
trusting in Him becomes simply logical.)
And you won't find me claiming that evolution absolutely didn't happen,
for such a claim would be far from my point,
which is that evolution is a large puzzle with most of the pieces missing.
And that doesn't necessarily sell me on it, as something that has been "proven", or is "fact".
To me, you "prove" it when you finish the puzzle, or at least have the vast majority of the pieces in place.
(And they can't be cleverly twisted to fit -- they have to fit naturally.)
Maybe God started evolution -- who knows?
But in the end, whether I think evolution happened or not doesn't affect my life,
either here on Earth or in Heaven.
Whether I make my peace with God does.

I just want evolutionists to be honest about the likelihood that ultra-complex life
evolved from dead, simple, random matter, and that it did so on its own and
with no guiding (intelligent) force. I just want them to be honest about that likelihood,
and to stop screaming that it is a fact.

(<3)

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Last edited by Ragtime on 08 May 2008, 8:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ragtime
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08 May 2008, 8:44 am

jfrmeister wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

The Earth is not a flat disc. It's round.

Why the eye-rolling, D1nko?

The bible says it has 4 corners. The earth is square... the bible says so and the bible is never wrong. :roll:

Does man travel 1) on the Earth, or 2) through it?
For all ancient man's intents and purposes, he used only 2 navigational dimensions:
the surface of the Earth, not its depth.
Whenever the phrase "the four corners of the Earth" is used, it refers to land.
Land isn't underground. Land is the surface of the Earth.
You don't walk in or through the Earth, you walk on it.
So when Isaiah 11:12 says that God will gather Israel
back from the four corners of the Earth,
that's referring to the four navagational directions
as still reflected on compasses today.
Regular compasses don't measure depth,
but only 2 dimensions, because that's all people need
to get from one part of the globe to another.

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08 May 2008, 10:31 am

Ragtime wrote:

Sedaka wrote:

it's not enough to argue against evolution cause god says it doesn't work that way nor is it probably wise to jeopardize your soul just because religion offers no facts.

any good scientist will acknowledge that there is the possibility of intelligent design (this seems to be what irks you--that a lot don't)... but i think what is harder is convincing "religious" (bad use of term, sorry lol) people that the likelihood of not needing an intelligent design to do all these things... is actually QUITE plausible.

and yes... i do believe that we started from inorganic things-->bacteria-->multicell-->more and more complex/diverse orgs.

i will accept your peace offering of god starting evolution. i think religion and bio can be ammended 100%.

and i somewhat agree with that, but i don't believe in any organized religion... but my concept of spirituality would be similar to that. life is a wondrous beautiful thing

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D1nk0
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08 May 2008, 11:21 am

Ragtime wrote:

(That Christianity requires "blind faith" is a popular misconception,
because when God comes through for you over and over again,
trusting in Him becomes simply logical.)

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08 May 2008, 12:28 pm

Sedaka wrote:

any good scientist will acknowledge that there is the possibility of intelligent design (this seems to be what irks you--that a lot don't)...

What irks me is that what you just wrote is not allowed to be mentioned by teachers in school. Notice I did not say "taught" -- I only said mentioned. Teachers are not allowed to mention in passing that ID might be true. Now, don't you think that's just a little bit biased? :shrug:

Sedaka wrote:

i will accept your peace offering of god starting evolution.

I hope I am always at peace with you Sedaka.

This could be the middle of a beautiful friendship.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 08 May 2008, 2:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sojournertruth
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08 May 2008, 1:25 pm

It can be mentioned in religion or sociology classes. It cannot be mentioned in science classes, because it isn't science. The idea, "I believe that life is too complex to have evolved entirely without supernatural guidance," is a philosophical/religious position that cannot be tested in any way, shape, or form.

To say that it's not allowed in schools, though, is as specious as saying that prayer isn't allowed in schools. Individual students can pray all they want, but they can't disrupt class and they can't force the other students to pray along with them (by peer pressure, teacher-led prayer, or any other mechanism).

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08 May 2008, 2:18 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Sedaka wrote:

any good scientist will acknowledge that there is the possibility of intelligent design (this seems to be what irks you--that a lot don't)...

What irks me is that what you just wrote is not allowed to mentioned by teachers in school. Notice I did not say "taught" -- I only said mentioned. Teachers are not allowed to mention in passing that ID might be true. Now, don't you think that's just a little bit biased? :shrug:

Sedaka wrote:

i will accept your peace offering of god starting evolution.

I hope I am always at peace with you Sedaka.

This could be the middle of a beautiful friendship.

funny... when i was teaching evolution (amongst other science) in the public school system... i wasn't allowed to use the word EVOLUTION nor teach any of the more relevant points to it... just what the curriculum ALLOWED. it goes both ways. but it is VERY irksome to me that they want evolution TAUGHT but not mentioned... seems like they're trin to pull somethin fast... and i'm not sure on which side.

i personally think both should be taught... thought granted, i bet the biology aspect takes a bit more explaining of processes... but i see no reason for not at least having a unit or something that that addresses both... if only in highschool.... things are harder for little kids to grasp and i'd rather leave their little impressionable minds to their own family values.

we have diff beliefs, but i think they serve the same purpose. only way to end it would be for you to drop dead in that summer heat you must be gettin by now (i've experienced your summers!)

edit: :lol:

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08 May 2008, 2:36 pm

sojournertruth wrote:

It can be mentioned in religion or sociology classes. It cannot be mentioned in science classes, because it isn't science.

So, not a single phrase that "isn't science" can be uttered in a science classroom.
Wait, wait, wait... don't we have free speech?
Do we, or don't we?
If the teacher makes clear that his view toward ID is outside of the curriculum,
and is merely answering one of students' most fervently-wondered questions --
"Does my teacher believe in ID?" -- then what is wrong with the teacher answering
his student's directly-asked question, and saying,
"Off the record, yes, I do happen to believe in ID"?
Answer: Nothing is wrong with that. This is America. People are Constitutionally
entitled to their beliefs, both on and off of American campuses.
And they are also Consitutionally entitled to talk about their beliefs,
both on and off of American campuses.

Don't like it? Go to another country.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 08 May 2008, 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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