Pro or anti abortion?

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DW_a_mom
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02 Sep 2008, 6:37 pm

Spokane_Girl wrote:

Why would people want to abuse the abortion system? Why would they want to literally pay every time they accidentally get pregnant? I don't know how much they cost but isn't it expensive? I don't see why people would decide to refuse birth control because abortions are optional. Why keep paying every time if condoms are cheaper?

WANT to abuse it, no. But be WILLING to abuse it by playing a game of odds when lining everything up to prevent pregnancy isn't feasible or has been forgotten in the heat of passion - yes.

Passion is a powerful thing and condoms - not so much. A lot of pregnancies during the use of fast and quick contraception.

I honestly do not think anyone rounds around saying their choice of prevention doesn't matter, because they can always get an abortion. But in the forgetfulness of everyday, and the unpredictable things that can happen in dating, I do think people sometimes find themselves in a passionate situation for which they have not been properly prepared, and choose to follow the pull of the passion thinking in the back of their head that should the odds fall against them, there is always that option. I've had friends who have admitted to that, that do not consider it a big deal, although not their first choice, certainly.

But that group is probably also open to education, to understanding what they are risking in the way of future reproductive help, so I think they can be led to better choices without needing the weight of the law against them.

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02 Sep 2008, 8:59 pm

I am pro-choice. Having been an example of being adopted by a couple who was very abusive. I can say I'd rather have been terminated by my birthmother than subjected to constant abuse. I know I am not the only person to have been abused...but there's no excuse for it in my eyes by anyone especially someone who made a choice to take in a child. I know for a fact, had my parents known I had something "wrong" with me, they would have walked away. As it was I constantly felt like a burden, & lived through physical, mental, & sexual abuse since I can remember. It's far kinder to terminate than to subject any child to the kind of life I endured. Since the age of 9, I begged God to end my life.

No stone throwing please! God knows why I feel the way I do. The reason I exist at all is because abortion was illegal & dangerous for the pregnant woman. Maybe my birthmother would have chosen differently had she had a choice. The only forms of birthcontrol were either abstinence or a condom which weren't reliable. If she had been raped, abstinence would not have been an option.

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Loborojo
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02 Sep 2008, 9:03 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Loborojo wrote:

as I suggested, cut those tubes either the boy's or the girl's just as cricumcision is an American routine, this could become routine too

I would assume (hope) you are being sarcastic here.

Such surgery is risky of itself, given that it IS surgery, and for women almost never reversible, and for men not always reversible.

circumcison for females and boys as good as irreversible and yet no national outcry about it, so a mutilation more a less, if you can avoid unwanted pregnancies and abortions, the church should bless it

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DW_a_mom
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02 Sep 2008, 9:17 pm

Loborojo wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Loborojo wrote:

as I suggested, cut those tubes either the boy's or the girl's just as cricumcision is an American routine, this could become routine too

I would assume (hope) you are being sarcastic here.

Such surgery is risky of itself, given that it IS surgery, and for women almost never reversible, and for men not always reversible.

There is a quite a large difference between removing a piece of skin that may or may not have benefit (I do know there is a huge debate here) and making it so that one can NEVER reproduce. How does one take a small percentage of unwanted pregnancies and propose a procedure that will also prevent future, wanted pregnancies? To tell some teen that just because generations before you made mistakes, we're going to force you to lose your ability to reproduce and, oh, there is a chance the surgery can never be reversed, but we think that is an acceptable risk? You are practically proposing to end the human race. You must be assuming cutting tubes is reversible, I would have to assume it, because if it isn't and you've done that to all teens, well, guess what? The human race will go extinct.

So my point was it isn't always reversible, and denying someone a potential sensation (in the case of male circumcision) is a far cry from denying someone the ability to EVER have children of their own (a virtual certainly if you cut tubes in women, and a possibility if you cut them in men). The two can't even be compared, the impacts are so different.

So you must be pulling my leg. Or you do not understand what you are suggesting.

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Loborojo
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02 Sep 2008, 9:24 pm

there is always the one-child policy we can adopt from China...but we deem such policies good enough for third world countries, don't we? Of course the Chinese have now an overkill of males, as girls are not as wanted as boys. Equal for Indian where the poorest State of Rajasthan has the highest rate of female child mortality at birth (read abortion) 62 %.

Extinction of the human race wouldn't be such a drama, I am sure other creatures would do a better job on this planet than we do...

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DW_a_mom
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02 Sep 2008, 9:58 pm

Loborojo wrote:

there is always the one-child policy we can adopt from China...but we deem such policies good enough for third world countries, don't we?

Hardly. It's not like we have a say in it. We are not part of that country. Each country has a right to make it's own choices, even if we think they are bad ones.

Loborojo wrote:

Extinction of the human race wouldn't be such a drama, I am sure other creatures would do a better job on this planet than we do...

I guess you lack that survival of the species instinct, eh?

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dtoxic
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02 Sep 2008, 10:53 pm

Don't know why I bother replying in here...emotions run high and I won't convert anybody...
But for the poll, or record...I am pro-choice, bordering on pro-abortion. The latter out of misanthropy, the former out of rationality. The lives already in progress are more important - vastly so - than those yet unformed or undeveloped. So it's the potential mother's choice.
The value of a potential human life is a tossup. John Wayne Gacy, Albert Einstein, G.W. Bush, Gandhi, all had moms who could have aborted them. In some cases the human race would have missed out on somebody cool, but in others we could have been spared the trouble of mass murder and whatnot.
I believe life begins at autonomy: not viability per se, and not birth, but labor: the kid made a move to crawl out and get things rolling, his or her first "choice", after which we might as well honor the effort.
As an aside, 1600's cartoon is flawed from my standpoint, as the baby angel is holding a conversation in English, something of which no aborted fetus was ever capable. This underscores the blind absolutism of many pro-lifers, who attribute more to the bundle of cells than is warranted.

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02 Sep 2008, 11:10 pm

Loborojo wrote:

personally I feel too much information is better than none. Better to put the pill on the night table for your 15 year old daughter than she coming home with an unwanted preganncy.
Another idea would be to have vasectomy at age 12 for boys and reconnetc the tubes when they are mature enough to knwo whether they want a baby and if they will be responsible as a father. so let them toy around with sex and no harm will be done. Enough experience will do the rest to turn hsi girlfriend later into a happy woman.

"No harm" unless we take STDs into account.

After the human embryo gets the first brain formations, it got a consciousness and can actually learn from the environment, for all I know that's the definition of a living human being, if it is right to kill it mum's convenience then it should be legal for mothers to kill their kids, Is I said in the other thread, I doubt a soul is imbued on the child at the moment he is born, and I doubt any other sort of magical thing happens then, so there really is no reason to make killing before legal while keeping killing-after illegal.

"Life begins with autonomy" Then I guess you are all right with people killing their one year olds.

So, if you ask, if you got pregnant, get those pills before the embryo gets a brain, else too late, face your responsibility, one time eventually you'll need to learn the consequences of your actions, and getting pregnant + not taking early measures is a big deal.

Quote:

the kid made a move to crawl out and get things rolling

Ok, you just called of all of who were born by a C-section non-living.

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02 Sep 2008, 11:31 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

Loborojo wrote:

"No harm" unless we take STDs into account.

It is very difficult to reverse a vasectomy once it's done. A better alternative might be a long-term implant with a gradual release of birth control medication. As for abortions being banned: If you overturn Roe vs. Wade in 1973 you will drive it back into the closet with self abortions using knitting needles, coat hangers, and bleach or lye douches which is what was done earlier this century. There's no telling how many women were killed or permanently damaged for life like this.

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02 Sep 2008, 11:54 pm

Danielismyname wrote:

Pro-killing.

The less humans, the better.

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intense
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03 Sep 2008, 1:59 am

Age1600 wrote:

intense wrote:

Age1600 wrote:

intense wrote:

what if it was discovered early on that the child has a painful degenerative disease and would have a VERY POOR quality of life - everyday would mean extreme suffering how would you feel then?

I only ask as sadly these are the kind of decisions some poor people have to make in real life.

None of the pro life people here have answered my question - I wonder why? It is an uncomfortable one isn't it, but some people are sadly forced to make decisions like the one I mentioned above.

Things aren't black and white there are shades of grey, so I ask again if your baby was going to be born with a degenerative disease which causes terrible pain and suffering for a very extended period after it’s birth would you still decide to continue with the pregnancy or not.

I personally would have to think of the child first and if it was only going to suffer for the short time it was going to live for than I would be forced to at least consider a termination, what right have I to let such suffering continue when I could have prevented it.
No matter what my feelings are about the sanctity of life I would have real trouble with the suffering it would cause to go through with the birth of a child that would experience nothing but pain and utter misery.

I know a family who had a baby found out in the womb that the baby may have this weird disorder that affects the way the baby feels pain, even though, the mother still had the baby, instead found out the baby had a disorder that stops the child from feeling any pain at all! So everybody thinks what a great thing that is, no it isnt, in fact the little girl chewed off her hand, she didnt feel it, poked her eye until she was blind, if she fell and broke her leg nobody would know, the mother had to assume that something was wrong, she wasnt getting any signals that it was hurtin her so it didnt matter to her, now that mother tells ppl everywhere that be lucky you feel pain! Now that mother knew her baby was going to be born with this or soemthing related to this but still gave that baby a chance! You have no idea what people are capable of, how even sometimes children who have the worst diseases, disorders in the world who end up being the best advocate and changing this world. Like the baby born with mermaid syndrome, the mother still had her, yet now shes worldwide known, and they had several operations so she could walk, now shes doing amazing. Doctors told my one friend her baby was going to have spinabifida, that you abort it if u wanted to, well she didnt, guess what, the baby didnt have spinabifida! Doctors dont always know much at all. Also what about the actor who has down syndrome, goes to show you that he didnt let his disability stop him, or the people with down syndrome getting married, what about those? Nobody talks about the amazing people out there who despite their disabilities are changing this world as we know it! Nobody knows for sure what their aborting at all, and nobody knows what that child who was aborted could have been, or where they would end up! There are tons of agencies you can just give that baby up to without even letting them know, tons, i use to help out one, open door pregancy center i think it was called, where they got donations and help so people who dont want children can give up their child without all this paper work or ppl knowing their an unfit mother, and give this child a chance to live life. Don't you think everybody should have the chance to live, jsut because one person says this child will suffer, how the heck do you know how that child is going to handle its life, how do you not know that child will rise above it and prove everybody wrong. Nobody can make that decision, that child should have a right to live, right to make their decisions in life.

well that's a great story but unfortunately it isn't allways the case.

What other cases are you refering too then? what about people who abuse the abortion privaleges and just kill babies left and right because they dont bother to use birth control, and dont want a baby, but love the sex, and since abortion is legal, why not jsut abort every child you get pregnant with, thats what many girls think! While many families are desperate to even have a child, my mother was one of them, she found out she couldnt have children, and lost it, took her years just to be able to adopt, had to go through many different tests to find out if their even qualified, yet some parents just can have them whenever they want and abort them also while some are fighting, desperately to even own a child! My mother flew 3 times to colombia, south america to adopt 3 different children while a lot of women are aborting them left and right, some people are actually fighting doing the impossible, speanding tons of money just to be able to say they have a child, i dont think thats fair at all! Yes you hear how the kid needs to get out of the mother, can kill the mother, but usually the best technique is inducing labor and if that child doesnt make it, thats a different story, but if they did do abortion it can cause more serious complications to the woman then anything.

Well obviously any system is open to abuse but it doesn't mean you should ban something totally because of it. I am against irresponsible abortions – what decent person wouldn't be? The cases I am referring to are the ones like I have been talking about where only terrible suffering would result if the child were born and it was known early on that what the outcome will be.

There will always be exceptional cases where sadly it has to be an option IMO despite the fact that I believe life should be protected it has to be decided on a case by case basis.

You could hardly call me pro abortion but like many others I believe that in extreme cases it should still be available.

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CockneyRebel
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03 Sep 2008, 7:07 am

Pro-Life. I feel that every baby deserves a chance at life, no matter how sick or disabled they are. Every baby is a blessing.

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03 Sep 2008, 10:05 am

CockneyRebel wrote:

Pro-Life. I feel that every baby deserves a chance at life, no matter how sick or disabled they are. Every baby is a blessing.

is that so? What about parents who'd like to kill thier baby because it screams day and night?
Sometimes a baby would be better off not to be born, by protecting it against itself and the environment it is going to end up in. so before it even grows a consciousness let it sleep forever.

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Demonique
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03 Sep 2008, 3:16 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Loborojo wrote:

There is a quite a large difference between removing a piece of skin that may or may not have benefit (I do know there is a huge debate here) and making it so that one can NEVER reproduce.

I suggest you look up female circumcision, it's NOT removing a piece of skin and is a far more disgusting practise than male circumcision. Cutting off a young girl's clitoris without anesthetic so she can never experience sexual pleasure because "ZOMG, it'll prevent her from sleeping around and being a slut!" is a barbaric practice and should be outlawed

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03 Sep 2008, 4:11 pm

Demonique wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

Loborojo wrote:

There is a quite a large difference between removing a piece of skin that may or may not have benefit (I do know there is a huge debate here) and making it so that one can NEVER reproduce.

Ewww yes, i read in the seventeen magazine once about a girl who went through that, holy crap i feel so bad for girls who have to endure that, thats just wrong!

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03 Sep 2008, 4:26 pm

Loborojo wrote:

CockneyRebel wrote:

Pro-Life. I feel that every baby deserves a chance at life, no matter how sick or disabled they are. Every baby is a blessing.

Hmm. Just because you feel like killing someone doesn't mean it would be right to do it. How can we so easily decide who would be better off not being born? Some say that about autistic children.

An observation: It seems like these discussions always come down to the cases where making the decision is the toughest-- pregnancy due to rape or incest, children with horribly painful diseases. (In one other commonly mentioned scenario-- when the mother's life is in danger, I would agree that abortion would be justified if that were the only way the mother's life could be saved. That would be a pro-life decision.)

While I am firmly pro-life, I wonder if it would be possible to restrict abortion to just these really tough cases so we can save a lot more lives while we go on arguing about the tough cases.

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