Atheists: Is stealing wrong? If so, explain why.

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ducasse
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26 Dec 2008, 1:49 pm

anna-banana wrote:

there are a lot of dilemmas that can not be solved if you only have the Bible as the source of your morality (abortion, in-vitro, stem cell research etc). if God were the only source of morality how come he's not sending another son down here to tell us what is the correct solution? all religion is man-made, that's why they all agree on the same basic rules, and that's why they are the same rules the atheists follow.

In fact there are many moral questions (divorce, contraception, stem-cell research, homosexuality, slave ownership, etc. etc.) where following the Bible is a definite impediment to recognising the humane, moral, correct answer.

In other words, there are many situations where a Christian can be moral only to the extent that he's willing to be a hypocrite. That's not a situation that anybody should feel comfortable with.

slowmutant
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26 Dec 2008, 1:56 pm

Fnord wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

As Christians, I think we are allowed to defend ourselves and our property. There's nothing wrong with seeking justice for ourselves, is there?

Just my $.02

But this is not a religious issue

You're right. It's a morality issue.

You're right. Religion has nothing to do with morality.

You know that's not true. :shameonyou:

anna-banana
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26 Dec 2008, 1:58 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Fnord wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

DentArthurDent wrote:

slowmutant wrote:

As Christians, I think we are allowed to defend ourselves and our property. There's nothing wrong with seeking justice for ourselves, is there?

Just my $.02

But this is not a religious issue

You're right. It's a morality issue.

You're right. Religion has nothing to do with morality.

You know that's not true. :shameonyou:

all religion is morality (in some form)

not all morality is religion

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ducasse
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26 Dec 2008, 2:08 pm

anna-banana wrote:

all religion is morality (in some form)

not all morality is religion

well... i don't know about that. most religions have a system of laws that govern behavior, but these may be entirely immoral. I would say there is no worse method of deriving morality than listening to what you think god is saying to you, or worse, what you think he said to some dead guy.

slowmutant
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26 Dec 2008, 2:26 pm

ed wrote:

Aren't you confusing "morality" with a system of laws and punishments designed to keep people from damaging society? There might be some things I don't do because I think they are wrong, but there might be other things that I consider moral, but don't do because they are illegal.

Justifying your own misdeeds with dispassionate reason and logic is called situational ethics. There is no actual seeking to be a better person here. It's all about what you can get away with and how.

anna-banana
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26 Dec 2008, 2:34 pm

if you Christians believe that God had created man in his own image and then gave him free will, why can't you accept that morality is a part of human nature and doesn't have to be preached?

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slowmutant
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26 Dec 2008, 2:50 pm

ducasse wrote:

anna-banana wrote:

all religion is morality (in some form)

not all morality is religion

Living guys give much better advice, don't they?

skafather84
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26 Dec 2008, 3:04 pm

slowmutant wrote:

ducasse wrote:

anna-banana wrote:

all religion is morality (in some form)

not all morality is religion

Living guys give much better advice, don't they?

i think what he's implying is that a dead guy who was "listening to god" will not only be of questionable morality but also of archaic morality.

there's not much from the bronze age that's applicable today.

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ducasse
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26 Dec 2008, 3:10 pm

slowmutant wrote:

ducasse wrote:

anna-banana wrote:

all religion is morality (in some form)

not all morality is religion

Living guys give much better advice, don't they?

well, the point isn't really who's giving the advice. the point is it's wrong to argue that something is correct simply because a particular person said it. "Treat others as you would like to be treated" is a good moral precept, but it is not good because Jesus said it. it is good because put into practise it would make the world a better place. likewise when Jesus says, while talking about God, "Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him." this is not rendered a less disgusting & absurd statement by the fact that Jesus said it.

ed
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26 Dec 2008, 3:32 pm

slowmutant wrote:

ed wrote:

...and you're the Christian? :lol:

I believe in the basic goodness of people.

I know deep inside that I am basically good... For me it's not all about what I can get away with and how. While I don't believe Jesus was the Son of God, his statement "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" is not something I believe because of any divinity on his part, but simply because it is intuitively obvious. The Golden Rule is also intuitively obvious. I don't need any religion to teach me that.

I guess religion teaches us that we are inherently evil. If we come to believe that, it is likely to become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Fortunately, my lack of religion allows me to believe the opposite.

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26 Dec 2008, 3:35 pm

anna-banana wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

So, you decide what's wrong based on your gut feeling? Would you give that pass to everyone else who does the same?
Keep in mind that that group of people includes active practitioners of, respectively, every crime known to man.
So, by your standard, which I'll term "gut-feeling morality", anyone who doesn't feel inside that breaking a law is wrong
is free to break it. Obviously, societal chaos is the natural result of practicing that, and allowing "gut-feeling morality" to be the final word on right and wrong.

why do you refuse to acknowledge that altruism is a part of the nature of the higher primates? there's been a lot of research about this, there were a few threads on this board quoting the famous "morality test" which proved that people of different religions and cultures make the same decisions about what's right and what's wrong?

you might call it gut-feeling or you might call it morality or the word of God or whatever, but essentially it's the same thing.

there are a lot of dilemmas that can not be solved if you only have the Bible as the source of your morality (abortion, in-vitro, stem cell research etc). if God were the only source of morality how come he's not sending another son down here to tell us what is the correct solution? all religion is man-made, that's why they all agree on the same basic rules, and that's why they are the same rules the atheists follow.

Not every aspect of modern life can be addressed biblically. Abortion, IVF, transgenderism, stem cells, none of these things had been dreamed of by the writers of Scripture in their day. And so the Bible can't speak to these modern issues. But the overall message of Scripture is timeless.

skafather84
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26 Dec 2008, 3:39 pm

ed wrote:

I guess religion teaches us that we are inherently evil. If we come to believe that, it is likely to become a self-fulfilling prophesy. Fortunately, my lack of religion allows me to believe the opposite.

it teaches that we're inherently evil without god.

i'm more concerned with the self-fulfilling prophecy of the end of the world...which too many people believe will happen for my comfort.

slowmutant
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26 Dec 2008, 4:04 pm

Quote:

it teaches that we're inherently evil without god.

If God repaired all the human evil in the world, the free will guaranteed to us would be destroyed. I think that's why a loving God allows evil to exist in the world. He's contractually obligated to leave mankind to our own devices, and by "contract" I refer to the OT Covenant.

But that's just the Judeo-Christian perspective ...

NocturnalQuilter
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26 Dec 2008, 4:40 pm

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

... I think it's an issue of entitlement.

slowmutant wrote:

Entitlements cause people to steal?

Of course. Why else do people steal?
The thought process goes like this: I am taking something of yours because I deserve it more than you do.

Last edited by NocturnalQuilter on 26 Dec 2008, 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NocturnalQuilter
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26 Dec 2008, 4:46 pm

NocturnalQuilter wrote:

I think most people would steal from whomever if they knew they wouldn't get caught or punished for it. I don't think it's an issue of morality any more than an issue of religious conviction- I think it's an issue of entitlement.

b9 wrote:

do you include yourself in that?

Of course I do.
But then I don't subscribe to the typical moral trappings and have no problem taking something I want if I know I won't be punished for it.

It is a cruel world out there. Dog-eat-dog. I've been beaten, bashed, and had so many things stolen from me I can't begin to count. I figure I'm just balancing out the score.

Screw or be screwed.

slowmutant
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26 Dec 2008, 5:06 pm

NQ, I have only one pair of big-girl panties. And I stole them from a big girl.

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