Proof of God

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slowmutant
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13 Feb 2009, 6:19 pm

Quote:

Nope. Like I said, it was the first time I'd seen the aphorism. Personally, I've always thought that thieves DO want to find policemen... otherwise why would they steal?

Why would thieves want to find the policemen if they are knowingly breaking the law? To succeed as a thief you must avoid the police. Thieves steal because not because they want to find the policemen but because they want to circumvent the law.

Fnord
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13 Feb 2009, 6:23 pm

SyeTenB wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Show me your God.

In what way?

Have you not read the previous posts in this thread? No games with words, no psychological deconstructions, no philosophical gymnastics, and no excuses. Physical presence, in whatever form God can take. He would appear to me and utter the Seven Secrets of my life, and I will believe.

It's just that simple.

Take it or leave it.

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SyeTenB
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13 Feb 2009, 6:37 pm

Fnord wrote:

Physical presence, in whatever form God can take. He would appear to me and utter the Seven Secrets of my life, and I will believe. It's just that simple. Take it or leave it.

The arrogance of demanding that the creator of the universe bow to your standards aside, the fact that you can make any sense of your thoughts, including your "Seven Secrets" is proof that God exists. Reasoning presupposes the universal, abstract, invariant laws of logic, and recalling thoughts presupposes the uniformity of nature, none of which can be made sense of apart from God.

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The atheist can't find God, for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

Fnord
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13 Feb 2009, 6:40 pm

SyeTenB wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Physical presence, in whatever form God can take. He would appear to me and utter the Seven Secrets of my life, and I will believe. It's just that simple. Take it or leave it.

No games with words.
No psychological deconstructions.
No philosophical gymnastics.
No excuses.

Physical presence.

Take it or leave it.

twoshots
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13 Feb 2009, 6:41 pm

SyeTenB wrote:

easoning presupposes the universal, abstract, invariant laws of logic, and recalling thoughts presupposes the uniformity of nature, none of which can be made sense of apart from God.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9Jcpagfieg[/youtube]

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lau
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13 Feb 2009, 6:45 pm

slowmutant wrote:

Quote:

Nope. Like I said, it was the first time I'd seen the aphorism. Personally, I've always thought that thieves DO want to find policemen... otherwise why would they steal?

Come on, slowmutant. Surely you have to admit that that is a pretty simplistic explanation of a thief's motives?

When they are fully aware of the fact that they are likely to (eventually) be caught, it surely has to be an active desire to be caught, that motivates them.

The other interpretation is that a thief is too stupid to realise that their actions will often fetch a policeman. In that case, there is no reason at all why "a thief can't find a policeman", as all they need to do is stand still (which they often do), and the policeman will find them.

===========

Fnord, I gather, is making an intelligent attempt at locating some sort of "supreme being". I don't think he's bothered too much about the details of the encounter - just that it should be reasonably convincing.

However, to my mind, Fnord sounds far more like an agnostic, than an atheist, so this saying doesn't apply. (And I seem to have drifted of topic, maybe.)

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SyeTenB
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13 Feb 2009, 6:47 pm

Fnord wrote:

Physical presence. Take it or leave it.

Demanding physical presence from a non-physical being is irrational. You don't want proof, you want to be your own god, and take comfort in your denial of the real God.

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Fnord
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13 Feb 2009, 6:52 pm

SyeTenB wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Physical presence. Take it or leave it.

Demanding physical presence from a non-physical being is irrational. You don't want proof, you want to be your own god, and take comfort in your denial of the real God.

I ask for proof, and you make personal attacks of bearing false witness against me. Typical "Believer" tactics notwithstanding, here is a simple syllogism that you should understand, being as how it is drawn from the Bible.

a. Jesus allegedly was/is physical.
b. Jesus allegedly was/is God.
:: God allegedly has a physical body.

The only "demand" I'm making is this: Show me your God, or admit that you can't.

Last edited by Fnord on 13 Feb 2009, 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

slowmutant
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13 Feb 2009, 6:54 pm

SyeTenB wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Physical presence. Take it or leave it.

Demanding physical presence from a non-physical being is irrational. You don't want proof, you want to be your own god, and take comfort in your denial of the real God.

I wish I had said that.

Fnord
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13 Feb 2009, 6:56 pm

slowmutant wrote:

SyeTenB wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Physical presence. Take it or leave it.

Demanding physical presence from a non-physical being is irrational. You don't want proof, you want to be your own god, and take comfort in your denial of the real God.

I wish I had said that.

Then you too would be bearing false witness against me.

I'm making no demand of God, only of mortal humans.

Show me your God, or admit that you can't.

SyeTenB
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13 Feb 2009, 6:57 pm

lau wrote:

When they are fully aware of the fact that they are likely to (eventually) be caught, it surely has to be an active desire to be caught, that motivates them.

Let me test that theory, do you want to spend an eternity in Hell?

lau wrote:

The other interpretation is that a thief is too stupid to realise that their actions will often fetch a policeman. In that case, there is no reason at all why "a thief can't find a policeman", as all they need to do is stand still (which they often do), and the policeman will find them.

I wouldn't call it stupidity so much as self-deception.

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SyeTenB
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13 Feb 2009, 7:00 pm

Fnord wrote:

Show me your God, or admit that you can't.

Demanding that anyone give you physical evidence of a non-physical being, is irrational, and merely exposes your desire to remain your own god, and not submit to the real God.

Besides, as much as you would like God to answer to you, He does not answer to me.

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The atheist can't find God, for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

Awesomelyglorious
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13 Feb 2009, 7:01 pm

SyeTenB wrote:

Reasoning does presuppose laws of logic, however, interestingly enough, these laws of logic were discovered by Aristotle, and were debated since then. I mean, Hegel denied the law of non-contradiction.

As for the uniformity of nature... well.... isn't that just a brute fact? I mean, nature appears to be uniform. If nature did not appear to be uniform, then we would perhaps treat it differently, but because nature, as best as we can tell, appears to be uniform, we act as if it were such, simply because there is no reason not to. I do not see how this demands a deity. In any case, if the uniformity of the universe is a brute fact, then couldn't logic be an emergent process from this uniformity? I mean, logic is a theory of categorization, so a world which acts according to certain categories will give rise to a creature that makes use of the categories that seem apparent.

slowmutant
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13 Feb 2009, 7:01 pm

Quote:

Show me your God, or admit that you can't.

I sure as hell can't show you God if you really don't want to believe in God. There's nothing anyone could show you that would make you believe. You're determined to deny Him with your last living breath.

God is an experience, not a special effect.

Seek the experience, not the special effect.

sartresue
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13 Feb 2009, 7:02 pm

Fnord wrote:

SyeTenB wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Physical presence, in whatever form God can take. He would appear to me and utter the Seven Secrets of my life, and I will believe. It's just that simple. Take it or leave it.

No games with words.
No psychological deconstructions.
No philosophical gymnastics.
No excuses.

Physical presence.

Take it or leave it.

What if God was one of us? topic

I will mention that if you do not believe in a supreme being you would not know it if you saw it.

This may well be the problem here: If you do not believe you will not see. I know myself I am too skeptical to believe and then interpret what I see as evidence of a god.

I doubt, therefore I am. (I trust my own mind.) I doubt. I do not believe and therefore I do not see.

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Fnord
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13 Feb 2009, 7:08 pm

SyeTenB wrote:

Fnord wrote:

Show me your God, or admit that you can't.

You do not believe that God has a physical body. This is heresy under the Christian religions, but not under others.

Which religion do you profess?

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