On School Prayer and the Pledge

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Just going to say this much....

The absence of "religion" is in and of itself a "religion."

Man cannot exist without some ethos that forms his perspective of morality...the balance of right and wrong.

The flaw in saying "no prayer in schools" is that upon close inspection you find it is predominantly imposed against Christian morals.

When you analyze the result of this and compare it to the identifying traits of other belief systems, you find that indeed "religion" is being taught and promoted in the public school system...they are just excluding specific ones.

You cannot make society "religion free." It is not possible. The closest balance would be to teach ALL faiths in the public schools and allow equal access so that students can make up their own minds. To exclude some in favor of others is to sanction some over others.

She is a heroine to me

He was not one to pull his punches, that's for sure. He also said something about not hiding a lamp under a basket. If you look at the two, it's clear that the difference between the two is your intentions. It isn't whether you're obvious about it or not. It's whether you're showing off or not, and whether you're hiding or not.


At the high school I went to, it was out in the open, but never ostentatious. It also wasn't a big deal. I don't know if it's always like that elsewhere, but I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be.

Religions do not die because to killed every believer, but they die because the social environment changed.



Exactly therefore we have this institution "state" with all its power. An atheist has also an interest in the function of society - why he should behave against his own interest?

No - your statement is as reasonable as a statement like "Dryness is an other form of water."



It is true that can't "make" a society free of religion, but you keep the common institutions, aka the state, which serve Atheists, Christians, Jews, Hindu, etc. and are paid by those free.

You can believe (sic) that if you wish.

If you examine the "political philosophies" that America is founded on, you don't get those from Atheist, Hindu, Islamic, etc. beliefs. The idea of a government which serves the people and does not act as master over the people is a concept taken from Christian values. The ides of a society were man answers to nobody except God (the rejection of a single man having "divine right" to rule over others) comes from Christian values.

Obliterate "religion" from politics and you destroy the fundamental concepts that makes America different from other nations that treat its people like slaves owned by the state.

The removal of one "religion" creates a void that another system of values will replace. A "religion-free" society is impossible. Something will be elevated into the status of "state religion" be it formally or silently.

Last edited by zer0netgain on 27 May 2009, 7:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

Bolognia. Democracy is not a Christian principle.

America is not a democracy. It is a republic. A perfect example of why America is in decline....ignorance of its own political history.

While your point is well-taken, it was not necessary to call him ignorant to do it.

The point is for Christians to live in peace with people of other faiths, and people of no faith.


"You people?" Shadowgirl, I'm a Christian. I'm just not the bigoted type that feels a need to shove it down other people's throats at every opportunity.


Check your calendar- the Cold War ended about twenty years ago.

I tried to find a better way to say it, but "ignorance" of history (be it the poster I quoted or people in general) is the problem that leads to social decay.

Is this the same Shadowgirl who said this in another topic?



Seems to me like two different people.

What? The Christian idea about government is that the government is set by god and obedience to the government is obedience to god. According to St. Paul the rebellion of the USA against their rightful King George III was a rebellion against god.

The idea governments should serve the people is an idea from antiquity and from the enlightenment.



I think you should start to read a bit philosophers - e.g. Marcus Aurelius or Plato's dialogues of Socrates. The idea that a human is an autonomous entity answerable primary to his contiguous and primary to himself and the gods is older than Christianity. Do they stop to read the Greek tragedies? Read the Antigone of Sophocles in which Antigone answers the king: "Yes; for it was not Zeus that had published me that edict; not such are the laws set among men by the justice who dwells with the gods below; nor deemed I that thy decrees were of such force, that a mortal could override the unwritten and unfailing statutes of heaven. For their life is not of to-day or yesterday, but from all time, and no man knows when they were first put forth."

The values you claim to be Christian are not Christian inventions, nor typical for this religion.



There more usefull ones - like "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" (Art. 2 of the French Constitution).

I stand by what I said and I really don't care where it came from so really mind your business huh?

You also might want to read what som of the founding fathers wrote about religion:

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, He must approve of the homage of reason rather than that of blindfolded fear."

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg" - Thomas Jefferson

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call in the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind."

"Any religon that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child cannot be a true system."

"Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly marked feature of all religions established by law" - Thomas Paine

"I almost shudder at the thought alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved - the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!" - John Adams

"During almost 15 centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution" - James Madison

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." - Benjamin Franklin


The 1797 Treaty of Tripoli included the words "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded upon the Christian religon. " This treaty was written during Washington's administration, approved unanimously by congress and signed by John Adams.

Most of the founding fathers were deists.

So who are you going to believe, right wing zealots who claim the US was founded as a Christian nation, or the words of those who actually founded the country?

One more - though not a founding father -

"Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church, and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate." - Ulysses S Grant

I don't even think it's appropriate to have the pledge of allegiance in the first place. Once I was old enough to realize how absurd it was (about 4th grade iirc), I was the one that wouldn't put my hand on my heart or say a word, eventually I didn't even stand up. A lot of teachers weren't too happy about this.