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ASPartOfMe
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09 Jun 2023, 3:58 pm

The pushback against 'wokeness' is legitimate - Cathy Young
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Quote:
The pushback against so-called “wokeness” has emerged a central theme in Republican politics, including the 2024 presidential race.

Meanwhile, the consensus among Democrats and liberals is that too much “wokeness” is a fake problem ginned up by the right for culture-war agitation — and a code word for racial and gender equity. But the left is wrong: The problem does exist, and denying it is bad for Democrats and bad for the culture.

Those opposed to “wokeness” have sometimes had trouble defining the word. And many on the right have used it to refer to a wide array of things they dislike, including opposition to Trump or the belief that the Jan. 6 Capitol Hill riot was a horrific assault on democracy. But the term, which originates in progressive anti-racist activism, does refer to a distinct set of ideas and attitudes. That includes the view that modern liberal societies are permeated with oppression based on race, gender, sexual preference, disability, body size and other identities; that we need a social justice revolution to dismantle these oppressions; and that human interactions must be constantly scrutinized for biases and inequities.

Few would deny that the effects of historical inequalities, such as racism and sexism and homophobia, still linger in American society, or that strides toward equity often run into a reactionary backlash. But “woke” activism takes worthy ideas to absurd extremes — insisting, for example, that all white Americans are guilty of racism in some form, if only by enjoying “white privilege”; that male sexual and romantic interest in women is almost inherently toxic; or that all claims of transgender identity must be validated, even if it means housing people with intact male anatomy in women's shelters or prisons. What’s more, because one of the core tenets of “woke” progressivism is that language and cultural expression play a key role in perpetuating oppressive attitudes, speech- and culture-policing is not a bug but a feature.

While “wokeness” is not the ubiquitous plague right-wing agitators claim it is, there are good reasons to be concerned. Take, for instance, public school lessons that ask students to “map” their various identities and classify those identities as either having “power” or as “marginalized.” Or proposed curricula in some progressive states and cities that try to inject “social justice” ideology into many classes including math and science, so that students are asked to ponder how “whiteness” or “power” operates in math. Or "diversity, equity and inclusion" workplace programs that many corporations now admit promote more polarization, bitterness and blame than understanding.

If liberals and progressives refuse to talk about these excesses and continue to dismiss them as a myth, this will only empower the right-wing anti-woke backlash.


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goldfish21
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09 Jun 2023, 4:02 pm

:lol:


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09 Jun 2023, 4:35 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The pushback against 'wokeness' is legitimate - Cathy Young
Behind a paywall
Quote:
The pushback against so-called “wokeness” has emerged a central theme in Republican politics, including the 2024 presidential race.
(etc.)

Consider the source. The person quoted (who I never heard of before) is a Soviet-born (like Ayn Rand) "journalist" with some contrarian views regarding feminism. She is also a Libertarian. Frankly I can't divine the agenda behind this opinion piece but I wouldn't give it a lot of weight in the sense of it being an influential contribution to the conversation.


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09 Jun 2023, 4:46 pm

goldfish21 wrote:
:lol:

Laugh all you want but having been a refugee from the Soviet Union she knows more about left illiberalism than all or most people on this site combined. Growing the Soviet Union during 1960s and 1970s as a Jew she knows a thing or two about being a member of a persecuted group.

And if you want to paint her as just another right wing anti woke bigot
Cathy Young wrote:
However, DeSantis’ answer is to counter perceived “woke” tyranny with “anti-woke” authoritarianism. After moving to ban instruction related to sexual orientation and gender identity in elementary school — which many see as reasonable — he has expanded the prohibition to middle and high school. He has tried to implement broad, almost certainly unconstitutional, bans on “diversity, equity and inclusion” programs in higher education and the workplace.

No less concerning is DeSantis’s flirtation with the far-right fringe that has captured much of the Republican Party since the rise of Trump. Nowhere has this been more evident than on COVID-19. One can defend some of the Florida governor’s controversial decisions on COVID mitigation, such as keeping schools open, a strategy now widely regarded as correct. But in the past year, DeSantis has increasingly thrown in his lot with the looney faction which promotes the idea that COVID was no big deal and that the public health measures against it were far worse.

Bizarrely, DeSantis is now attacking Trump on one of his administration’s clearest achievements — “Operation Warp Speed,” which produced the COVID vaccine quickly. Most recently, he has accused Trump of destroying “millions of people’s lives” by “turning the country over to [Anthony] Fauci,” the right’s favorite bogeyman. The million-plus lives literally destroyed by COVID itself got no mention.

But DeSantis does align with Trump on another issue: painting the rioters who stormed Capitol Hill on Jan. 6, 2021 trying to hijack a presidential election as persecuted dissidents and promising pardons.

And let’s not forget the flip-flops on support for Ukraine’s fight against Russian aggression — an issue on which DeSantis has clumsily tried to pander to the anti-Ukraine far right without alienating the pro-Ukraine conservative base. When questioned on the issue on Fox News Wednesday, he tried to dodge by deploring “wokeness” in the U.S. military.



MaxE wrote:
Consider the source. The person quoted (who I never heard of before) is a Soviet-born (like Ayn Rand) "journalist" with some contrarian views regarding feminism. She is also a Libertarian. Frankly I can't divine the agenda behind this opinion piece but I wouldn't give it a lot of weight in the sense of it being an influential contribution to the conversation.

The agenda is basically "Woke" is bad. The left by ignoring "Woke" illiberalism/extremism will increase the authoritarian "anti woke" backlash, also bad.


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09 Jun 2023, 5:06 pm

Well the point of my comment was simply to encourage skepticism, not debate.


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09 Jun 2023, 7:06 pm

A child;'s IQ is the biggest predictor in their future success. It's in university or college where they get to apply superior critical thinking skills. Simply drowning children in K1-K12 in STEM (like in Asian schools) does not make for innovative critical thinkers.

Some of the most "woke" socialist curriculum can be found in Scandinavian countries like Finland. Yet their graduate are some of the best in the world.

Oh! but wait doesn't woke create a dumber nation? :roll: I'm sorry but the whole premise that somehow American kids are falling behind because of having a diverse curriculum is in itself anti-intellectual garbage. The cream (in the end) always rises to the top.

My wife's nephews and nieces in Denmark are exposed to school work that is highly mixed even for STEM majors so students are encouraged to take Arts, literature, media and social studies prior to entering University. Denmark like Sweden and Finland have what Americans woke curriculum yet produce the world's best engineers, architects, designers, doctors and scientists. There is a reason the Nobel prize is given from Sweden.

In my observation as somebody who teaches college level students, the best students are those who take a multidisciplinary array of subjects. It stimulates broad critical thinking which they need when they apply their higher order thinking in the real world. I have seen pure arts graduates from highschool enter medical school and work today as surgeons.



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10 Jun 2023, 7:30 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
The agenda is basically "Woke" is bad.

I'll assume this to not be an ironic statement.

Let me recount something I experienced just yesterday. So my wife likes to watch old American game shows. Arguably the best of these is the Match Game, at least the 70s version with Gene Rayburn as host. I find this show way more entertaining than most of these, one enjoyable part is that some of the "clues" are in fact jokes to which the contestant (and the celebrity panel) must guess the punchline. You know when you've gotten the right answer if it's hilarious, in which case it's assumed most of the witty panelists will get the same answer.

In the US, there is a product called "Shake'n'Bake" which is basically a bag containing seasonings that the consumer uses to season chicken before baking in the oven, by putting the chicken in the bag then shaking it. By the way, although this is still available it was especially iconic in the 70s. So the clue in this case was the Shake'n'Bake manufacturer wanted to expand their market to include Africa so they sent representatives there for market research and were told by locals that they needed the bag to be much bigger. The question was why and the intended answer was so it could fit an elephant (the largest land animal duh) in fact the celebrity panelist the contestant was trying to match got that. However the contestant's guess was "a man" implying (although Gene Rayburn steered clear of any obvious reaction) that Africans, as everybody knows, are cannibals.

Imagine how any African might feel on seeing that!

So to me, "wokeness" has a lot to do with bringing this aspect of our (not just American!) history to our attention. Admittedly, few if any people today believe that cannibalism is widely practiced in Africa however anti-woke people don't want our children to be aware that such thinking was widespread 50 years ago because it will make white kids feel bad about being white.

I guess my position on this is not so much to defend wokeness, which inarguably can be taken to unreasonable extremes, but to challenge people who are outspokenly "anti-woke" as to their true motivation for embracing that "intellectual stance".


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16 Jun 2023, 8:49 am

Image


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16 Jun 2023, 9:36 am

goldfish21 wrote:
(Jesus meme)

As a non-Christian I literally don't get this, although I imagine it may have something to do with the lack of a comma.


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16 Jun 2023, 9:40 am

goldfish21 wrote:
Image


Some believe that Jesus did in fact, not turn water to wine, but in fact turned water into a DMT ayahuasca beverage, thus making him woke with God, the higher consciousness that DMT can be the key too.

Ever that, or he smoked a whole lot of the devil's lettuce! Lol! :ninja:


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22 Jun 2023, 1:33 am

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25 Jun 2023, 9:19 am

Another article: https://www.salon.com/2023/06/25/why-th ... cant-face/


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09 Aug 2023, 6:51 pm

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10 Aug 2023, 1:45 am

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Laugh all you want but having been a refugee from the Soviet Union she knows more about left illiberalism than all or most people on this site combined. Growing the Soviet Union during 1960s and 1970s as a Jew she knows a thing or two about being a member of a persecuted group.


I promised to leave these threads but I'll make one parting point.
You are trying to conflate Soviet era authoritarianism with the woke movement that started with American civil rights and was coined by black americans in the 1960s (not the term that's been hijacked by right wing conservatives in 2023).

Believe it or not but I've met lots of immigrants from left wing countries who overcompensate due to their paranoia and bias about anything remotely left wing, hence why you see silly things like Vietnamese for Trump or hispanics who join the proud boys etc...their view points are relevant to them but hardly aligns with the zeitgeist of those of us who grew up here in the west

The civil rights and progressive movements in the 60s/70s were super critical to demolishing the edifices of conservatism that pervaded the anti-communist, bland vanilla society my parents grew up in. When conservatives and their allies (like your jewish soviet refugee) talk about a golden era of western civilisation, the reality is it never existed. Everything we take for granted in the west came about from progressives. The idealism that sprung from the 60s might never have taken firm root (let's face it, westernized countries are still quite conservative) but it freed up our minds (even just a little).

If the anti-woke movement want to return to conservative values then one doesn't have to look far what that looks like. The same people who espouse the greatness of the 1950s would be the first to not want to set foot in that era. it's all BS, this anti-woke stuff



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10 Aug 2023, 5:14 am

cyberdad wrote:
ASPartOfMe wrote:
Laugh all you want but having been a refugee from the Soviet Union she knows more about left illiberalism than all or most people on this site combined. Growing the Soviet Union during 1960s and 1970s as a Jew she knows a thing or two about being a member of a persecuted group.


I promised to leave these threads but I'll make one parting point.
You are trying to conflate Soviet era authoritarianism with the woke movement that started with American civil rights and was coined by black americans in the 1960s (not the term that's been hijacked by right wing conservatives in 2023).

Believe it or not but I've met lots of immigrants from left wing countries who overcompensate due to their paranoia and bias about anything remotely left wing, hence why you see silly things like Vietnamese for Trump or hispanics who join the proud boys etc...their view points are relevant to them but hardly aligns with the zeitgeist of those of us who grew up here in the west

The civil rights and progressive movements in the 60s/70s were super critical to demolishing the edifices of conservatism that pervaded the anti-communist, bland vanilla society my parents grew up in. When conservatives and their allies (like your jewish soviet refugee) talk about a golden era of western civilisation, the reality is it never existed. Everything we take for granted in the west came about from progressives. The idealism that sprung from the 60s might never have taken firm root (let's face it, westernized countries are still quite conservative) but it freed up our minds (even just a little).

If the anti-woke movement want to return to conservative values then one doesn't have to look far what that looks like. The same people who espouse the greatness of the 1950s would be the first to not want to set foot in that era. it's all BS, this anti-woke stuff

What "woke" is trying to do is replace one purity regime with another. What way too many "anti woke" people are trying to do is replace woke purity gains with the old purity. Being anti purity regime be it MAGA or woke is never, ever BS. Same for being against judging a person negatively based on their skin color whether that negative is being a welfare queen, or being a privileged racist.

Cathy Young has consistently criticized illiberal antiwokeism. She did it in the article I quoted. She does it almost every column even if that column is mostly criticizing the left.

Wokes have consistently said to listen to a person's "lived experience". There is some merit to that. But when that person is a Jewish refugee from the Soviet Union, a Hispanic from Cuba, or has Asian background too often the assumption is that the person is a racist. There is a word for assumptions like that. It is prejudice.


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10 Aug 2023, 9:45 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:
Wokes have consistently said to listen to a person's "lived experience". There is some merit to that. But when that person is a Jewish refugee from the Soviet Union, a Hispanic from Cuba, or has Asian background too often the assumption is that the person is a racist. There is a word for assumptions like that. It is prejudice.


You mean like Ukrainian refugees or Chinese migrants who bring with them the same stereotypes about race from their home country to America or Australia? it's still punching down. Yes they think they have a green light to imitate racists in their new home. Newsflash! two wrongs don't make a right.

Trying to reverse label people who have been historically underprivileged using the same language against them is like claiming women who continue to victimized by men in 2023 are actually the ones harassing men, egging them on to retaliate. Conservatives might think they are smart using coded language but they haven't won this battle, at least not yet.