Do you believe in God?
The_Joker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

Joined: 25 Apr 2016
Gender: Male
Posts: 63
Location: North America, Gotham City [At the hideout.]
If God does already exist, looking at fine tuning, here's still the problem why creation seems so full of flaws
- why so many stars or galaxies, most of which do not support life
- why so much diseases, that leads to pain or unnecessary death
Is this "collateral damage"? Seems to me an argument against God, as written in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_poor_design
Here's written that these arguments are used by some scientists against the existence of God, or at least arguments for incompetence of God. Traditional theological responses often refer to corruption of the world due to human interference, but that seems to fail, when humans "entered the scene" very late
Btw: nothing after death seems better to me than having to live forever during an afterlife, never being able to stop it, even if it's boring. As sometimes old people can tell, that they do not long for anything anymore: they know all the possibilities of life, after a certain point there might be nothing more to expect.
- why so many stars or galaxies, most of which do not support life
- why so much diseases, that leads to pain or unnecessary death
Is this "collateral damage"? Seems to me an argument against God, as written in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_poor_design
Here's written that these arguments are used by some scientists against the existence of God, or at least arguments for incompetence of God. Traditional theological responses often refer to corruption of the world due to human interference, but that seems to fail, when humans "entered the scene" very late
Btw: nothing after death seems better to me than having to live forever during an afterlife, never being able to stop it, even if it's boring. As sometimes old people can tell, that they do not long for anything anymore: they know all the possibilities of life, after a certain point there might be nothing more to expect.
You have made arguments against a god that cares about the welfare of human beings, not a god that created a universe in which life could occur.
The answer to the number of stars and galaxies could be that even if life is rare, you need stars to live and die before conditions are amenable to life. So you need vast amounts of time and space.
- why so many stars or galaxies, most of which do not support life
- why so much diseases, that leads to pain or unnecessary death
Is this "collateral damage"? Seems to me an argument against God, as written in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_poor_design
Here's written that these arguments are used by some scientists against the existence of God, or at least arguments for incompetence of God. Traditional theological responses often refer to corruption of the world due to human interference, but that seems to fail, when humans "entered the scene" very late
Btw: nothing after death seems better to me than having to live forever during an afterlife, never being able to stop it, even if it's boring. As sometimes old people can tell, that they do not long for anything anymore: they know all the possibilities of life, after a certain point there might be nothing more to expect.
You have made arguments against a god that cares about the welfare of human beings, not a god that created a universe in which life could occur.
The answer to the number of stars and galaxies could be that even if life is rare, you need stars to live and die before conditions are amenable to life. So you need vast amounts of time and space.
Why would God create such a convoluted system?
convolutions only exist in the mind of the beholder
Maybe, but wouldn't God still be able to recognize the most straightforward way of reproducing existence and then use that?
Maybe He has plans we don't know about, but that's the theological equivalent of saying, "It's the way it is 'cuz."
Physics?
I'm asking why God made physics the way He did in the first place. It's a fairly complex system for doing something he could have made much easier even if he wanted matter to reconfigure on its own.
He could have had one speck of dust grow into a planet. Boom. He can create matter, so where the extra information comes from wouldn't be a problem.
Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels[a] shouted for joy?
8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?
12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.
19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!
22 “Have you entered the storehouses of the snow
or seen the storehouses of the hail,
23 which I reserve for times of trouble,
for days of war and battle?
24 What is the way to the place where the lightning is dispersed,
or the place where the east winds are scattered over the earth?
25 Who cuts a channel for the torrents of rain,
and a path for the thunderstorm,
26 to water a land where no one lives,
an uninhabited desert,
27 to satisfy a desolate wasteland
and make it sprout with grass?
28 Does the rain have a father?
Who fathers the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
Who gives birth to the frost from the heavens
30 when the waters become hard as stone,
when the surface of the deep is frozen?
31 “Can you bind the chains[b] of the Pleiades?
Can you loosen Orion’s belt?
32 Can you bring forth the constellations in their seasons[c]
or lead out the Bear[d] with its cubs?
33 Do you know the laws of the heavens?
Can you set up God’s[e] dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you raise your voice to the clouds
and cover yourself with a flood of water?
35 Do you send the lightning bolts on their way?
Do they report to you, ‘Here we are’?
36 Who gives the ibis wisdom[f]
or gives the rooster understanding?[g]
37 Who has the wisdom to count the clouds?
Who can tip over the water jars of the heavens
38 when the dust becomes hard
and the clods of earth stick together?
39 “Do you hunt the prey for the lioness
and satisfy the hunger of the lions
40 when they crouch in their dens
or lie in wait in a thicket?
41 Who provides food for the raven
when its young cry out to God
and wander about for lack of food?
39 “Do you know when the mountain goats give birth?
Do you watch when the doe bears her fawn?
2 Do you count the months till they bear?
Do you know the time they give birth?
3 They crouch down and bring forth their young;
their labor pains are ended.
4 Their young thrive and grow strong in the wilds;
they leave and do not return.
5 “Who let the wild donkey go free?
Who untied its ropes?
6 I gave it the wasteland as its home,
the salt flats as its habitat.
7 It laughs at the commotion in the town;
it does not hear a driver’s shout.
8 It ranges the hills for its pasture
and searches for any green thing.
9 “Will the wild ox consent to serve you?
Will it stay by your manger at night?
10 Can you hold it to the furrow with a harness?
Will it till the valleys behind you?
11 Will you rely on it for its great strength?
Will you leave your heavy work to it?
12 Can you trust it to haul in your grain
and bring it to your threshing floor?
13 “The wings of the ostrich flap joyfully,
though they cannot compare
with the wings and feathers of the stork.
14 She lays her eggs on the ground
and lets them warm in the sand,
15 unmindful that a foot may crush them,
that some wild animal may trample them.
16 She treats her young harshly, as if they were not hers;
she cares not that her labor was in vain,
17 for God did not endow her with wisdom
or give her a share of good sense.
18 Yet when she spreads her feathers to run,
she laughs at horse and rider.
19 “Do you give the horse its strength
or clothe its neck with a flowing mane?
20 Do you make it leap like a locust,
striking terror with its proud snorting?
21 It paws fiercely, rejoicing in its strength,
and charges into the fray.
22 It laughs at fear, afraid of nothing;
it does not shy away from the sword.
23 The quiver rattles against its side,
along with the flashing spear and lance.
24 In frenzied excitement it eats up the ground;
it cannot stand still when the trumpet sounds.
25 At the blast of the trumpet it snorts, ‘Aha!’
It catches the scent of battle from afar,
the shout of commanders and the battle cry.
26 “Does the hawk take flight by your wisdom
and spread its wings toward the south?
27 Does the eagle soar at your command
and build its nest on high?
28 It dwells on a cliff and stays there at night;
a rocky crag is its stronghold.
29 From there it looks for food;
its eyes detect it from afar.
30 Its young ones feast on blood,
and where the slain are, there it is.”
40 The Lord said to Job:
2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
_________________
“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts
Then Job answered the Lord:
4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at all who are proud and bring them low,
12 look at all who are proud and humble them,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15 “Look at Behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength it has in its loins,
what power in the muscles of its belly!
17 Its tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of its thighs are close-knit.
18 Its bones are tubes of bronze,
its limbs like rods of iron.
19 It ranks first among the works of God,
yet its Maker can approach it with his sword.
20 The hills bring it their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants it lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal it in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround it.
23 A raging river does not alarm it;
it is secure, though the Jordan should surge against its mouth.
24 Can anyone capture it by the eyes,
or trap it and pierce its nose?
41 [h]“Can you pull in Leviathan with a fishhook
or tie down its tongue with a rope?
2 Can you put a cord through its nose
or pierce its jaw with a hook?
3 Will it keep begging you for mercy?
Will it speak to you with gentle words?
4 Will it make an agreement with you
for you to take it as your slave for life?
5 Can you make a pet of it like a bird
or put it on a leash for the young women in your house?
6 Will traders barter for it?
Will they divide it up among the merchants?
7 Can you fill its hide with harpoons
or its head with fishing spears?
8 If you lay a hand on it,
you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
9 Any hope of subduing it is false;
the mere sight of it is overpowering.
10 No one is fierce enough to rouse it.
Who then is able to stand against me?
11 Who has a claim against me that I must pay?
Everything under heaven belongs to me.
12 “I will not fail to speak of Leviathan’s limbs,
its strength and its graceful form.
13 Who can strip off its outer coat?
Who can penetrate its double coat of armor[i]?
14 Who dares open the doors of its mouth,
ringed about with fearsome teeth?
15 Its back has[j] rows of shields
tightly sealed together;
16 each is so close to the next
that no air can pass between.
17 They are joined fast to one another;
they cling together and cannot be parted.
18 Its snorting throws out flashes of light;
its eyes are like the rays of dawn.
19 Flames stream from its mouth;
sparks of fire shoot out.
20 Smoke pours from its nostrils
as from a boiling pot over burning reeds.
21 Its breath sets coals ablaze,
and flames dart from its mouth.
22 Strength resides in its neck;
dismay goes before it.
23 The folds of its flesh are tightly joined;
they are firm and immovable.
24 Its chest is hard as rock,
hard as a lower millstone.
25 When it rises up, the mighty are terrified;
they retreat before its thrashing.
26 The sword that reaches it has no effect,
nor does the spear or the dart or the javelin.
27 Iron it treats like straw
and bronze like rotten wood.
28 Arrows do not make it flee;
slingstones are like chaff to it.
29 A club seems to it but a piece of straw;
it laughs at the rattling of the lance.
30 Its undersides are jagged potsherds,
leaving a trail in the mud like a threshing sledge.
31 It makes the depths churn like a boiling caldron
and stirs up the sea like a pot of ointment.
32 It leaves a glistening wake behind it;
one would think the deep had white hair.
33 Nothing on earth is its equal—
a creature without fear.
34 It looks down on all that are haughty;
it is king over all that are proud.”
_________________
“In the same way that you see a flower in a field, it’s really the whole field that is flowering, because the flower couldn’t exist in that particular place without the special surroundings of the field; you only find flowers in surroundings that will support them. So in the same way, you only find human beings on a planet of this kind, with an atmosphere of this kind, with a temperature of this kind- supplied by a convenient neighboring star. And so, as the flower is a flowering of the field, I feel myself as a personing- a manning- a peopling of the whole universe. –In other words, I, like everything else in the universe, seem to be a center… a sort of vortex, at which the whole energy of the universe realizes itself- comes alive… an aperture through which the whole universe is conscious of itself. In other words, I go with it as a center to a circumference.”~ Alan Watts
Popular among believers is the Foot prints in the sand.
Here's a lighter side (pun is intended) in
The Butt Prints In The Sand
One night I had a wondrous dream,
One set of footprints there was seen,
The footprints of my precious Lord,
But mine were not along the shore.
But then some stranger prints appeared,
And I asked the Lord, "What have we here?"
Those prints are large and round and neat,
"But Lord they are too big for feet."
"My child," He said in somber tones,
"For miles I carried you alone.
I challenged you to walk in faith,
But you refused and made me wait."
"You disobeyed, you would not grow,
The walk of faith, you would not know.
So I got tired, I got fed up,
and there I dropped you on your butt."
"Because in life, there comes a time,
when one must fight, and one must climb.
When one must rise and take a stand,
or leave their butt prints in the sand."
author unknown
_________________
Still too old to know it all
He could have had one speck of dust grow into a planet. Boom. He can create matter, so where the extra information comes from wouldn't be a problem.
Are you sure it could be simpler? It's possible you could describe it all with one simple equation, which we haven't discovered yet.
God probably created this mess because he wanted to conduct an experiment. He wanted to see how sentient beings of His own creation react to all sorts of complex adversity.
He, also, was bored, and wanted a good laugh.
Last edited by kraftiekortie on 29 Apr 2016, 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
He could have had one speck of dust grow into a planet. Boom. He can create matter, so where the extra information comes from wouldn't be a problem.
Are you sure it could be simpler? It's possible you could describe it all with one simple equation, which we haven't discovered yet.
Possible, but from what we know now, it's complex.
I sympathize in a way with the belief in God, but I'm not going to speculate and then base my beliefs on a speculation or possibility that has only a theoretical basis rather than what is apparent, (and still a possibility, but a more likely one).
If there's a determination in nature to create the animate from the inanimate, than that seems to support belief in God. But fine tuning does not seem to be the all-wise, all-knowing phenomenon that the religious like to imagine their God to be. It's nothing like creation in 6 days or anything like that.
At some occasions the way things develop seems more like trial and error. Perhaps inspired by a desire to create life. So a little bit of both: trial and error, and divine inspiration.
Especially if it all depends to the underlying mechanics of the universe: behaviour of quantum particles, value of physical constants, evolution of the species, death, disease, etc etc, then the question arises why God couldn't do without it. I won't say that everything is just accidental, don't like that. I like the idea that in nature there seems a desire, determination, will, to create life. But it seems only partly determination, also partly trial and error, maybe both