Gun control is withering on the vine.

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Lecks
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20 Jun 2010, 8:38 am

Alright, so I've heard 1 reason that I don't disagree with for having guns: recreational use.
Personally, I've only been in contact with guns once, when one of my great-uncles took me to a shooting range. I didn't take any enjoyment from it, partially due to my aversion to loud noises, but I suppose some may like it for similar reasons that others enjoy archery.

However, I'm still not convinced that tazers with a propulsion mechanism aren't equally effective against an assailant within a certain range. What drives me away from guns is the potential ease with which an inexperienced gun user could end a life, even if it's in self defense. I'm not against the existence or use of guns, per se, but those who choose to carry guns should, in my opinion, be required to partake in training exercises that simulate life-threatening situations to the point where properly dealing with an actual threat will be a matter of reflex.

Raptor
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20 Jun 2010, 12:29 pm

Lecks wrote:

Unless I’m mistaken, even tasers with a propulsion device are good for one use only which rules out dealing with multiple assailants.
Example: You run up against three hooligans in a parking lot at night and have no choice but to act defensively. You nail the closest one with the tazer and he goes down (assuming the damn thing works as advertised). The other two, seeing that it’s only a taser and you’re now out of ammo, are going to be all over you and quite possibly kill you. What's to stop them?
This is one scenario but you see the glaring potential flaw in a weapon like that.
It might be okay to carry one in addition to a firearm for certain applications but I wouldn’t want to stake my life on one as an only defense.

You cannot really train to the point where every scenario can be handled reflexively because there are too many variables that will come in to play. To get the training to even come close is expensive and out of reach of a lot of those of us that go armed and there aren’t enough schools to support everyone that would need it.

Myself, I practice certain drills dealing with defensive handgun shooting. It doesn't and can't cover all the variables but it at least gets me familiar with a basic skill set that can be applied.

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20 Jun 2010, 12:45 pm

Gun control is withering on the vine.

Getting back to the OP.
It doesn't seem to be quite the hot topic that it has been although there are still a few legislators doing their damnedest just because they are too entrenched in their beliefs to do anything different.

I think that people in the past few years have other more important issues to deal with AND that they are starting to see the flaws in the "gunz-r-bad" rhetoric.
Once the latter comes more and more into play then the horse the anti's have been beating on really becomes dead.

skafather84
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20 Jun 2010, 1:22 pm

Dox47 wrote:

skafather84 wrote:

I don't need to carry a gun around with me and I'm in the murder capital of the world.

You live in Ciudad Juarez? At least you have the choice to protect yourself or not, citizens of that blighted city don't have any say in the matter.

Third place behind Juarez and Caracas.

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greenblue
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20 Jun 2010, 4:16 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0D78JtxmqI[/youtube]

Denny Crane is hilarious, and well, I don't know if you have followed the show when aired, but the character seems to be a mockery of republicans somehow, given Shartner's comedic antics, and seeming to be the only republican from the firm in that show.

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Dox47
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20 Jun 2010, 4:31 pm

Lecks wrote:

Recreational use is an important aspect of gun ownership, but it is not the reason that it is enshrined in the Constitution, like the bumper sticker says, the 2nd Amendment ain't about huntin'. Gun owners such as myself don't demand that you like guns, but we do demand that our rights are not infringed upon, especially by people that have minimal experience with guns and their culture.

Lecks wrote:

However, I'm still not convinced that tazers with a propulsion mechanism aren't equally effective against an assailant within a certain range. What drives me away from guns is the potential ease with which an inexperienced gun user could end a life, even if it's in self defense. I'm not against the existence or use of guns, per se, but those who choose to carry guns should, in my opinion, be required to partake in training exercises that simulate life-threatening situations to the point where properly dealing with an actual threat will be a matter of reflex.

Tasers are an imperfect solution, they lack the reliability and concealability of firearms and are useless in a multiple assailant situation. They make sense as a back up weapon in addition to a firearm, but presently they can't replace them as a primary tool of defense.

Many states do mandate training for people applying for concealed carry permits, but even those that don't require training have extremely low rates of misconduct by permit holders and further requirements would be subject to significant diminishing returns. For the most part, people who are willing to go to the trouble and expense of getting licensed are responsible people who are not likely to misuse their pistols, and the extremely low revocation rates bear this out.

Basically I think you're responding out of lack of experience with the subject and emotion, there is so much anti-gun disinformation floating around that it takes a concerted effort to learn the truth if you're not from the culture. Gun deaths in the US are much rarer than portrayed and insignificant when compared to impaired driving related mishaps or diet related health problems, but it's harder to get emotional about those deaths. If you want to do something to lower gun deaths and violent crime across the board, support drug law reform, that would actually save lives as opposed to restricting law abiding citizens for no good reason.

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DW_a_mom
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20 Jun 2010, 5:09 pm

Dox47 wrote:

greenblue wrote:

Is gun control = banning guns, in the strictest sense?

In the end it always is. Everything in between is just incremental impositions to get people used to the idea and less resistant and able to resist when it does come. It's already happened in countries like the UK and a number of authoritarian regimes, and is an ongoing process elsewhere (Canada and Australia come to mind). People such as I here in the US know this, have taken note of historical precedent, and thus respond to any further encroachments as a full blown attempt at a ban, because that's where they inevitably lead.

I know I'm pages behind, but I disagree, and I think that rhetoric is the equivalent of a scare tactic to keep all restrictions off the books. Plenty of well meaning people believe in keeping guns legal with certain conditions and limitations, as ineffective

as you think conditions and limitations have been. I will always feel better having a sense that there is some attempt. I do not and will never own a gun, and I absolutely won't be bullied into believing I must in order to be safe, and I honestly believe in the concept of a world where different opinions on the issue can live safely together. I believe that balance is possible, and I resent efforts to tell me it isn't. I'm not going to take away your guns; I just want to have some sense we're trying to keep them out of the hands of the crazies, and trying to keep the most destructive weapons off the street. My circle in real life feels exactly as I do; we're quite the norm. You have every right to feel we've ignorant or naive, but you also have to respect that is a real position held by many, many people.

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just_ben
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20 Jun 2010, 5:39 pm

greenblue wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0D78JtxmqI[/youtube]

Shatner wins

He has a point though, thank God for guns, eh?

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DW_a_mom
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20 Jun 2010, 5:48 pm

I've cleared this thread of the Wild West gun fight starting pretty much from the first mention of male body parts and continuing through everything that referenced or relied on that post, and everything that little to do with serious debate and much to do with taunting other members.

I have a total disdain for the topic of guns, and I do resent how people like me get characterized by those who advocate for guns, but I still can't say some of the arguments made here were appropriate, and that goes to all sides who decided to take aim this time around.

Please, also, try to not post violent video here. I realize you all get a lot of freedom on this forum, but it remains a public forum and violent video has little to do with serious debate points.

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DW_a_mom
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20 Jun 2010, 5:49 pm

And a personal post, after reading this thread:

To those of you who will say I have no logical argument for my positions on guns ... fine. I don't care. My position is my position. I've been trained in the use of firearms and I left that experience with an aversion to them that may be highly emotional but is also extremely real. Real life, we know who in the neighborhood owns guns, and we would never, ever go to them in an emergency least they misunderstand the knock on their door. One neighbor tells her teen girls that if they have to sneak into the house, it had better be on the left, and not the side where the guy owning the gun lives. People fear those neighbors; not fear that equals respect, but fear that they are going to make a fatal error. Like it or not, that is reality.

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greenblue
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20 Jun 2010, 6:25 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

And a personal post, after reading this thread:

To those of you who will say I have no logical argument for my positions on guns ... fine. I don't care. My position is my position.

From my perspective, I would say that your position on guns seems to be the best in this thread for me so far, but that would be partly because I am ideologically against the idea of gun ownership, but as the issue of gun control goes, I disagree with the notion of no-control at all, which seems many advocate for it, and that control leads to a ban, which seems nonsense.

The issue being control instead of a ban, I would say that making it difficult somehow should sound reasonable at least, such as strict psychological evaluations and criminal history, etc, and that is different than strictely a ban.

Quote:

Real life, we know who in the neighborhood owns guns, and we would never, ever go to them in an emergency least they misunderstand the knock on their door. One neighbor tells her teen girls that if they have to sneak into the house, it had better be on the left, and not the side where the guy owning the gun lives. People fear those neighbors; not fear that equals respect, but fear that they are going to make a fatal error. Like it or not, that is reality.

Yes, and that is an important point to make towards the idea, of the high potential of that risk, and I often point out that similar accidents may come from bad judgement in a given situation, and usually, people are not without judgmental flaws. It seems like for reasons of security, it creates other security issues. that and the psychological state of the gun owner and people around. I would personally say IMHO that a gun in the house and teens or children, doesn't look much of a safe combination.

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Last edited by greenblue on 20 Jun 2010, 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Raptor
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20 Jun 2010, 6:31 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

greenblue wrote:

Is gun control = banning guns, in the strictest sense?

So what good have these restrictions done IN ACTUAL PRACTICE and what do you think any future restrictions will do?
I'll answer it for you: NOTHING! Come back with a better answer than that.
And what is the "balance" thing? There's never been an argument from the whole anti-gun community that adds weight to create "balance" with. It takes more than drivel to create balance.
There's certainly nothing in your whole post that adds any reason to you position on this but misguided emotion.

pandabear
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20 Jun 2010, 6:53 pm

Of course. Anyone who lacks enthusiasm for guns is a victim of misguided emotion.

I think that playing with one's penis is a more wholesome hobby than shooting guns.

MissConstrue
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20 Jun 2010, 7:05 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

You mean you deleted my thread which I thought pretty relevant to the topic. I guess you get to censor out whatever YOU don't like whether it is graphic or not which mine was not.

I don't see any rules on here for why you did what you did. Anyway no biggie, you're the mod. :roll:

I use to own a couple of guns given to me by my uncle that were stolen. Ironically some years later he died at the hands of his own gun by "accident".

Wonder if this will go censored.

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John_Browning
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20 Jun 2010, 7:06 pm

Lecks wrote:

I'm not against the existence or use of guns, per se, but those who choose to carry guns should, in my opinion, be required to partake in training exercises that simulate life-threatening situations to the point where properly dealing with an actual threat will be a matter of reflex.

I've already done this. Shooting a gun (or a tazer for that matter) under stress is a whole lot harder than your average day at the range. Concealed weapon permit classes emphasize this too.

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greenblue
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20 Jun 2010, 7:15 pm

MissConstrue wrote:

You mean you deleted my thread which I thought pretty relevant to the topic.

Yes, that was relevant, I think that could have been probably my fault, as she claims she deleted posts that made references to the penis, which was my reply to yours, if that's the case, sorry.

And well, I didn't have time to reply to a now gone post, given the cleansing, but I wanted to point out in a sarcastic manner, the gun thing issue in relation with Asperger's, as I recall reading somewhere, a psychologist stating that it was dangerous for an aspie to develop obsession towards fire arms, trouble is that I don't remember the source.

Anyway, here is something regarding children and guns which I think is an important issue to think about.

From http://www.adolescent-help.com/Children ... rearms.htm

Quote:

Children and Firearms

Parents, professionals and many others are concerned about the increasing numbers of children and adolescents killed by firearms. The following statistics were taken from the Center for Disease Control and Prevention and the Center to Prevent Hand Gun Violence:

* Firearm injuries are the second leading cause of death for young people, 10 to 24 years of age. For every child killed four are wounded.
* In 1994, nearly 90% of homicide victims 15 to 19 are killed with a firearm.
* Of violent deaths in schools, 77% are caused by firearms.
* Approximately 50% of all homes in the United States contain a firearm, and over 50% of handguns in homes are loaded.
* In 1996, more than 1,300 children aged 10-19 committed suicide with firearms.

We cannot gun-proof our children and adolescents. Children are playful and active. Adolescents are curious and impulsive. Such healthy traits when mixed with guns can cause death.

The best way to protect children against gun violence is to remove all guns from the home. If guns are kept in the home, there will always be dangers. The following actions are crucial to lessen the dangers:

* Store all firearms unloaded and uncocked in a securely locked container. Only the parents should know where the container is located
* Store the guns and ammunition in separate locked locations
* For a revolver, place a padlock around the top strap of the weapon to prevent the cylinder from closing, or use a trigger lock; for a pistol, use a trigger lock
* When handling or cleaning a gun, never leave it unattended, even for a moment; it should be in your view at all times

Even if parents don't own a gun, they should check with parents at other places where their children play, to make sure safety precautions are followed. In a study of accidental handgun shootings of children under 16, nearly 40% of the shootings occurred in the homes of friends and relatives. The tragedies occurred most often when children were left unsupervised.

When youngsters use alcohol and also have a gun available, the risk for violence rapidly increases. In a youth suicide study, victims who used firearms were about five times more likely to have been drinking than those who used other means. In a study of firearm-associated murders among family members, almost 90% of the offenders and victims had used alcohol or drugs before the killings.

The average American child witnesses an increasing number of acts of violence each day on TV, in movies, and through computer games. Most involve firearms. Children often imitate what they see, and are more aggressive after extensive viewing of violence on TV, in movies and videos, and/or playing violent computer video or arcade games. Parents should help protect their children from the effects of media violence. For example, they can watch TV, movies, and videos with children; ration TV; and disapprove of the violent episodes in front of the children, stressing the belief that such behavior is not the best way to resolve a problem.

Children and adolescents with emotional or behavioral problems may be more likely than other children to use guns, against themselves or others. Parents who are concerned that their child is too aggressive or might have an emotional disorder may wish to seek an evaluation by a child and adolescent psychiatrist.

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Last edited by greenblue on 20 Jun 2010, 7:42 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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