Evolution vs Baraminology: the empirical showdown.

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greenblue
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17 Aug 2010, 3:26 pm

AngelRho wrote:

As much as I enjoy even New Age piano instrumentals (part of the reason I even got into this business), and as little as I doubt that music has "healing powers," I don't really buy into a lot of New Age religion/philosophy, esoteric "healing," psychic phenomena, etc., so I really have my doubts that music can be heard as harmful based on a tuning standard!

New age, hmmm, the genre seems different than the mysticism though, or at least it is not related now, I think most "new age" musicians dislike that term and prefer "easy listening". And yeah, well, I have heard some things related to it, as well as rythms and the heart activity, which I can't really say about that, and the Mozart effect which I'm very skeptic about it, all of this would be interesting in another thread, but we are getting a bit off topic

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AngelRho
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17 Aug 2010, 3:39 pm

greenblue wrote:

AngelRho wrote:

New Age music is closely tied in with mysticism, just not as imposing as, say, actually reading a book on "healing" and wasting money on quartz crystals. A lot of it is just cheese, but every now and then you get some good stuff. David Lanz is my all-time favorite, but I also like George Winston (who actually ENCOURAGES improvisation to aspiring New Age pianists covering his work), and Suzanne Ciani (who isn't "typical" of New Agers, but still good stuff). Another guy I like is David Arkenstone, and his stuff is full-on New Age. His "Atlantis" album, I thought, was really nice.

Orwell
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17 Aug 2010, 8:10 pm

AngelRho wrote:

The problem with the experiment is with psychoacoustics. I have NO idea how to do a double-blind study with this kind of thing.

Quite simple. Record the same piece performed at different intonation standards. Play a random recording to your research subject, and record your observations of their reaction. Don't check to see which version they listened to until after you have recorded all of your observations (it could help to have someone else managing the playback, so you don't see it at all until after cataloging everyone's reaction). Maybe do 10 or so different pitch standards, observe approximately 10 people listening to each one, you need somewhere around 100 people for a very crude study.

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Anecdotal data is still data, though, and it could serve as a springboard for better-defined research into the area.

The former is false, the latter is true. Anecdotal data can only informally point you towards a possible area to look at... it cannot be taken seriously purely on its own grounds.

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22 Aug 2010, 2:25 pm

Orwell, how is the experiment going? Is it progressing? I know you probably busy with more important things though, like work and school.

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22 Aug 2010, 7:20 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Orwell wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Orwell wrote:

No electricity in my apartment for a couple days. That was quite a hassle dealing with the power company to get it restored.

That sucks. Hope the weather there wasn't as warm as it was here.

Probably warmer; I'm in Miami.

Temperature in the upper 80's to mid 90's with near 100% relative humidity?

It's warmer here, and I just spent the past week outside carrying a sousaphone. Managed to get sunburn even through my SPF 90 sunscreen.

All right, this weekend I hope to finalize the dataset. Time to clarify the exact species being studied. For simplicity, let's stick to mostly within class Aves. I'm looking for ideally 15-20 species total to examine, but I will accept up to 30. I think I want to have 5-8 representatives each of three different "kinds" in the baraminology sense, plus either a fourth kind with several members or a smattering of other species that don't necessarily fall in the same kind.

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iamnotaparakeet
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23 Aug 2010, 2:43 am

Orwell wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Orwell wrote:

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Orwell wrote:

No electricity in my apartment for a couple days. That was quite a hassle dealing with the power company to get it restored.

That sucks. Hope the weather there wasn't as warm as it was here.

Probably warmer; I'm in Miami.

Temperature in the upper 80's to mid 90's with near 100% relative humidity?

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23 Aug 2010, 7:58 am

Orwell wrote:

Quote:

Anecdotal data is still data, though, and it could serve as a springboard for better-defined research into the area.

The former is false, the latter is true. Anecdotal data can only informally point you towards a possible area to look at... it cannot be taken seriously purely on its own grounds.

Actually, anecdotal data is data. It just isn't scientifically relevant data. Let's just say that you have a friend who bought a new soda: Zippee. Well, his opinion is data, and data that you might use when deciding whether to buy that soda or not for yourself. It just isn't scientific data. However, if it lacked useful informational content altogether, then it couldn't even be a springboard.

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23 Aug 2010, 9:28 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:

Orwell wrote:

Quote:

Anecdotal data is still data, though, and it could serve as a springboard for better-defined research into the area.

The former is false, the latter is true. Anecdotal data can only informally point you towards a possible area to look at... it cannot be taken seriously purely on its own grounds.

Anecdotal Data is relavent to the extent that it leads to a properly refined and controlled set of observation. In a journey, the first step is just as important as the last.

ruveyn

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24 Aug 2010, 12:32 pm

@'keet and Orwell: what will you use as your outgroup (or do I misunderstand the design of your inquiry?)

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24 Aug 2010, 12:59 pm

LKL wrote:

@'keet and Orwell: what will you use as your outgroup (or do I misunderstand the design of your inquiry?)

I dunno, what would you suggest? My first instinct would be to throw in a reptile; probably a crocodile or something.

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24 Aug 2010, 2:00 pm

Orwell wrote:

LKL wrote:

@'keet and Orwell: what will you use as your outgroup (or do I misunderstand the design of your inquiry?)

I dunno, what would you suggest? My first instinct would be to throw in a reptile; probably a crocodile or something.

Birds are endothermic though, as are mammals, whereas reptiles are exothermic. Why not have a comparison between the birds and humans?

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24 Aug 2010, 3:01 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Orwell wrote:

LKL wrote:

@'keet and Orwell: what will you use as your outgroup (or do I misunderstand the design of your inquiry?)

I dunno, what would you suggest? My first instinct would be to throw in a reptile; probably a crocodile or something.

Birds are endothermic though, as are mammals, whereas reptiles are exothermic. Why not have a comparison between the birds and humans?

Endothermic/exothermic is a bit of a simplification of what actually happens, and it's not really an either/or. Modern taxonomy places birds within the reptile group, actually, whereas mammals split off from that lineage much earlier. I think it's fairly common to take crocodiles as an outgroup when doing phylogenetic analysis on birds.

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25 Aug 2010, 7:45 pm

crocodile is good...
a closer outgroup would be a hoatzin or a ratite like the emu, and a further one might be something like a turtle.
...didn't some T.rex protein recently get found, preserved in bones? Was it sequenced, or just chemically analyzed?

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25 Aug 2010, 8:03 pm

LKL wrote:

I think I had read that the red blood cells retrieved from the tyrannosaur had nuclei in them, as in chromosomal material. I don't know if they analyzed it or were able to sequence the proteins or the DNA though.

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25 Aug 2010, 9:31 pm

LKL wrote:

I've had quite enough of the ratites, thank you very much... I wasted a week of my life redoing analyses on them for a professor who didn't want to accept empirical evidence.

A chicken might be acceptable as an outgroup organism, if we want something within Aves. I don't think I want to go much further out than crocodile, as that will probably be more than sufficient to anchor the trees properly.

Haven't heard about the T-Rex protein. I tend to ignore paleobiology because there just aren't always enough data for us to come up with ideas that are simultaneously interesting and well-supported. Genomics, though... mountains of data are available, and it's only going to get cheaper to obtain more of it.

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26 Aug 2010, 1:25 am

I don't think galliformes would be very far 'out' wrt. the other groups; they're basically another type of relatively modern birds. The hoatzin (Opisthocomidae), though, is pretty unique. IIrc its taxonomy is subject to debate, which might make it worse as an outgroup but fun to include in the study itself.

I think you're right; the crocodile should work just fine.

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