Did Rome invent Christianity?
MCalavera wrote:
I'm not sure what passages you mean, but when I used to study the New Testament Scriptures, I used to see a condemnation of both Jews and Gentiles (especially in the Epistles) in an attempt to get them to repent and believe in the Gospel. So I don't see why it has to be just "anti-Jewish".
And really, this Roman conspiracy is not worth discussing seriously so I may as well discuss the bits and pieces emptyeye stated (whether they support the conspiracy or not).
And really, this Roman conspiracy is not worth discussing seriously so I may as well discuss the bits and pieces emptyeye stated (whether they support the conspiracy or not).
It isn't a matter of "getting them to repent" but rather a few passages just take a very negative view of Jews. For instance, the Gospel of John is often noted for seeming to turn all of the Jewish people into an evil anti-Jesus group. John was a later writing, and likely written by a Gentile. Gentiles didn't like Jews much, and they interpreted the death of Jesus in a negative manner, blaming the Jews rather than Pilate. Now, this may or may not be a valid interpretation of John, but some have held to it, and I don't think it gives up much meaningful ground to the "Roman conspiracy" thing, as trying to argue against something not ridiculous to engage something that is ridiculous threatens to lump the two together.
MCalavera wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
both
seriously dude , I am loathe to even think what your recieved Idea is on this.
and I am not eager to be misread and having the goalposts moved.
I have seen enough strawmen in my life.
if your tradition says that christians were entirely Jew-loving then run with that.
here is some reading so that I don't have to explain the sky is blue to you.
Jews and Christians: ed Paul Dunn lots of essays and views.
-Jake
seriously dude , I am loathe to even think what your recieved Idea is on this.
and I am not eager to be misread and having the goalposts moved.
I have seen enough strawmen in my life.
if your tradition says that christians were entirely Jew-loving then run with that.
here is some reading so that I don't have to explain the sky is blue to you.
Jews and Christians: ed Paul Dunn lots of essays and views.
-Jake
You make it sound like it's so clear that the NT Scriptures are anti-semitic. What happened to your "scriptural agnosticism" or whatever one calls it?
When I have the time, I'll read what you suggested (I already have enough reading to do at the moment). Just point me to the passages that form the basis of his arguments.
John 8:44-47 (New King James Version)
44 You are of your father the devil , and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”
or something
also if you read Gamaliel a close contemporary of Jesus the agreement between the too is striking but in the gospels the Pharisees are slandered as and the arguments
put in their mouths do no fit what we know they wrote.
normative modern judaism is Pharisaical
(you see how even the meaning of that word is anti-semitic?)
you can read the Pharisees for yourself and decide if the depiction of them
in the gospels is fair.
Philologos wrote:
"normative modern judaism is Pharisaical"
Quite
I have never seen a clear statement od what the Sadducees were into - do we really know?
The language is [in a sense] evenhanded, though.
Pharisaical, yes, but also Jesuitical, Puritanical, and of more recent date fundamentalist.
Quite
I have never seen a clear statement od what the Sadducees were into - do we really know?
The language is [in a sense] evenhanded, though.
Pharisaical, yes, but also Jesuitical, Puritanical, and of more recent date fundamentalist.
yes but Jesuitical, Puritanical and fundamentalist are not in xtian scripture.
-Jake
It takes time?
Jesuitical and fundamentalist are not strictly comparable. The former would not be in the language had it not been for Henricus VIII and the scrambled sub-religious politics of the next few reigns, and fundamentalist has expanded fo far from its original basis as to be a new thing.
Puritanical, though, is quite comparable, though ofcourse not of identical semantics [it is axiomatic that any two words no matter how close in meaning cannot be semantically identical nor strictly interchangeable.
But I could see down the road somebody [no value judgements expressed here though I got them] doing a NEW translation, like we need one, updating Pharisee and Sadducee to make them intelligible to the modern North American.
emtyeye wrote:
Long did I wonder why the Pope and his friends dress like Roman emperors and live at approximatly the same address. Now there is a discovery that explains it:
Judea was a big problem for Rome in the first century. Slaves and others were converting to Judism for several reasons. Jews were against slavery, at least for their own people and went to great lengths to free their enslaved members. Jews refused to work on the Shabath, slaves worked every day. The Jews would not worship Ceasar, who was considered to BE "god" by Rome. And Judea was a fierce, militaristic state that openly revolted against Rome, providing inspiration to others who had been conquered. The general Vespasian went to war with them, but was called back to Rome by Nero and left his son Titus to clean up. Once in Rome, Nero was killed and Vespasian became emperor. He then was deified becoming "god" , thus Titus was literally "the son of god". Titus' campaign to destroy Jerusalem, as detailed by historian of the day, Josephus, follows the exact path of Jesus, starting at the sea of Gallilee, next to Gadara then Jerusalem. Jesus prophesises the destruction of Jerusalem and Titus actually accomplished it. The gospels were written by the three Flavian emperors, Vespasian, Titus and Dometion (the father, son and "holy ghost") as a form of war propaganda to subvert the Jewish religion and undermine it's militarism by replacing it with a pacifistic messiah who would "give unto Ceasar". The discovery is that the passages in Josephus' work "The War of the Jews" (circa 80 AD) that describe Titus' campaign against Jerusalem are a literary parallel to the campaign of Jesus in the New Testament. There are at least a dozen parallels and they occur in the exact same sequence in both texts. Both texts were written in the same part of the world and in the same time period. Jesus was Titus Flavius in disguise. Those who took up the new, invented religion would then wind up worshiping the Emperor without even realizing. Apparently, it's still going on.
Judea was a big problem for Rome in the first century. Slaves and others were converting to Judism for several reasons. Jews were against slavery, at least for their own people and went to great lengths to free their enslaved members. Jews refused to work on the Shabath, slaves worked every day. The Jews would not worship Ceasar, who was considered to BE "god" by Rome. And Judea was a fierce, militaristic state that openly revolted against Rome, providing inspiration to others who had been conquered. The general Vespasian went to war with them, but was called back to Rome by Nero and left his son Titus to clean up. Once in Rome, Nero was killed and Vespasian became emperor. He then was deified becoming "god" , thus Titus was literally "the son of god". Titus' campaign to destroy Jerusalem, as detailed by historian of the day, Josephus, follows the exact path of Jesus, starting at the sea of Gallilee, next to Gadara then Jerusalem. Jesus prophesises the destruction of Jerusalem and Titus actually accomplished it. The gospels were written by the three Flavian emperors, Vespasian, Titus and Dometion (the father, son and "holy ghost") as a form of war propaganda to subvert the Jewish religion and undermine it's militarism by replacing it with a pacifistic messiah who would "give unto Ceasar". The discovery is that the passages in Josephus' work "The War of the Jews" (circa 80 AD) that describe Titus' campaign against Jerusalem are a literary parallel to the campaign of Jesus in the New Testament. There are at least a dozen parallels and they occur in the exact same sequence in both texts. Both texts were written in the same part of the world and in the same time period. Jesus was Titus Flavius in disguise. Those who took up the new, invented religion would then wind up worshiping the Emperor without even realizing. Apparently, it's still going on.
Not as silly a premise as some may believe. It is not right but it is closer to the truth than may be otherwise suspected.
In Roman times up to the time of Constantinople there were many religions.
One of these was a new religion. That of Christianity.
They had their Caesar which was a living God. Jesus became out of necessity not the prophet but the embodiment of Christ too. So all the baby in the manger stories and such were added to back a claim. Out of necessity.
Furthermore The religion a small and cultish had to be non-threatening and peaceful. Peaceful believers were not a threat to the Roman emperors, at least the later emperors.
They did something more accommodating than just preach a peaceful faith and again out of necessity, something that previous religions of old have done.
They started a process of amalgamation. They realigned holy days to "fit" with other Roman Gods - Invictus and Mitra and others.
Ever wondered as to such things as the aligning St Nicolas and where and why the Pagan Easter Bunny egg thing aligned so well. It was not fluke.
In as much that the Islamic faith is happy to count Jesus as a prophet of their God, Christians accommodated themselves by small degrees to fit in. Invictus and Mitra are no longer worshipped of course but during a time when special dates were celebrated they conformed too to celebrate their peaceful religion in ways similar and their holy days during similar times.
Their numbers built and by the times of Constantinople's conversion they had seamlessly evolved into Christianity as we know it (or pretty close to). The Roman Saints absorbed and the Holy Days kept (if not realigned).
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
It isn't a matter of "getting them to repent" but rather a few passages just take a very negative view of Jews. For instance, the Gospel of John is often noted for seeming to turn all of the Jewish people into an evil anti-Jesus group. John was a later writing, and likely written by a Gentile. Gentiles didn't like Jews much, and they interpreted the death of Jesus in a negative manner, blaming the Jews rather than Pilate. Now, this may or may not be a valid interpretation of John, but some have held to it, and I don't think it gives up much meaningful ground to the "Roman conspiracy" thing, as trying to argue against something not ridiculous to engage something that is ridiculous threatens to lump the two together.
The Pope, Darth Ratzinger, has finally cleared that up. The death of Jesus is not the fault of us Juden. Praise the Lord. Now I can have the first sound sleep I have had in 1900 years!
ruveyn