France Bans The Burqa

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JeremyNJ1984
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12 Apr 2011, 1:26 pm

visagrunt wrote:

JeremyNJ1984 wrote:

Why should Muslim woman who moves to France or chooses to practice that fundmentalist belief think for a second that in a secular modern nation-state we should at all care about what they think of our country?

It is just as much their country. If France is truly founded on the principles of Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité then the public law must support the liberty of all people in France--not merely those whose views happen to match the political will of a xenophobic majority.

Quote:

You can't come to my house and dictate to me how I should live..its the other way around, when it concerns the entire house...

We're not talking about "your house." We are talking about people moving freely about in public. Unlike your private property, within a public space the government cannot arbitrarily restrict the freedom of its citizens unless government is pursuing a legitimate public policy objective. Show me that the chador has an impact on public health and public safety, and I will revise my opinion.

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If this law " violated your central identity" what does that say about your identity?

What a patronizing comment. Who are you to comment on another person's decisions about her identity? A woman herself, and only she, has the capacity to decide what is right for her.

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btw...the law doesnt say you cant wear the burqa in a mosque, private home, or car...it only concerns out in public.

That is precisely what is wrong with the law. It seeks to impose limits on personal freedom within public space where no legitimate government interest is being protected or enhanced.

Quote:

When you cover your eyes its a law enforcement issue when it comes to crimes committed, whether traffic violations or major offenses. That is where it goes from private to public issue.

Ah, but we don't ban wearing a mask or wearing a stocking on one's face. The fact that a practice might be used to avoid detection during the commission of an offence does not make that practice in and of itself a criminal offence.

This ban is specific, and targetted at religious face coverings, not face coverings in general. If government's intention was to assist police in combatting crime, and religious face coverings got caught up in that law of general application, I would be far more sanguine about it. But that is precisely what government did not do.

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No one is discriminating against Islam here..no one is shutting down mosques, forcing a ghetto, or creating unequal civil laws. You know we have bigamy laws in this country, right? why not get rid of them as it discriminates against some of the tenets of the Mormon faith..aren't we discriminating there? there comes a time when the practices of faith conflict with modern secularism, and we have to take the public concern over the religious dogma. The fact they are hypocrites was more to show how fundmentalist and backwards they are in relation to the modern nation-state. If they want us to respect their laws and customs they need to adhere to it when they come to our countries.

Frankly, I think the religious argument is irrelevant. This is a question of personal liberty, freedom of expression and security of the person. This is an example of government seeking to infringe on these freedoms without a legitimate public interest in doing so.

In a modern, pluralist, democratic state, it is entirely possible for traditional practice and secular public law to coexist. To suggest otherwise is to betray the very principles of individual liberty that lie at the foundation of those states.

What defines " Liberty" than? Does " Liberty" confer on me the right to chain up my wife on a leash and drag her around in public? Its nice and all in theory to claim we should just allow everything to go..but there is a line that should be drawn. France has an excellent legal system...if this law somehow infringes on the French Constitution, let the ACLU equivilant groups demand its repeal through the court process...you want to deny the will of the people of france a say in how they want the culture of their state to be. In the public domain, the burqa is dangerous...like i said, law enforcement would have definate issues with it on routine traffic stops, investigations, ID checks, etc...how does the Law treat a Muslim woman now considering they are only answerable to their husbands under their religious beliefs. What gives them the right to think they should have a higher status than everyone else in society? It does have a legitimate defense under " public safety" if you understand the tactics of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda who use a policy of deception, and have dressed up as woman before to carry out suicide attacks. Their is a long history of it. You can go research it yourself. We don't ban a mask or stockings, but if a police officer stopped you and demanded you take it off for identification purposes you would have to comply...if it was a muslim woman, she can't under her religious laws take her veil off....also...the car issue keeps rising up my head..what is the vision like with a burqa on while driving? why should other drivers on the road suffer the consequences for someones " religious beliefs" ? I think you misunderstand the way France has seen religion and its impact on the public sphere in general since the early 20th century. They have a very strict policy when it comes to religion infringing in the public domain, whether its the schools and roman catholicism, politics, and in cultural life of the state.

zen_mistress
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12 Apr 2011, 2:57 pm

The issue I would like to point out, is that THE BURQA AND NIQAB ARE NOT ISLAMIC. They are not religious dress, they are a symbol of men wanting to stop other men looking at their wives by
a) keeping them inside the house behind screens
b) Making them wear body concealing sacks and masks so that other men wouldnt be able to see them.

If a Western man did this to his wife, he would be called a psycho. But if it is a Muslim man, I am supposed to not be bothered by this? Why is it not the man behind a screen? Why does he not wear a mask to protect him from all the horny women who will look at him and try and seduce him? It makes my blood boil, and what is more it is wrong.

Muslim women are supposed to wear long sleeves, loose clothing, long skirts or pants and a headscarf. It is possible to dress modestly and live a modest, moral life without having to wear a burqa and without feeling that being a woman means you have to hide yourself from the world.

I have 0 tolerance for seeing women enshrouded in those garments. Little girls as young as 4 are dressed like this. A woman has to don this as soon as she reaches womanhood, which is basically between 11 and 14. That is very young to have to dress like that for the rest of your life.

And I will never stop speaking out about it. I am a person who loves my freedom and I would love that sort of luxury for every woman around the world and I will never stop speaking out about it.

OK?

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puddingmouse
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12 Apr 2011, 3:49 pm

zen_mistress wrote:

And I will never stop speaking out about it. I am a person who loves my freedom and I would love that sort of luxury for every woman around the world and I will never stop speaking out about it.

OK?

I feel the same way about the universality of feminism. However, burkas are only a symptom of the actual problem. The problem itself is patriarchy, particularly this sort:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Namus

Banning burkas will do nothing to change this cultural problem.

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Last edited by puddingmouse on 12 Apr 2011, 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AceOfSpades
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12 Apr 2011, 3:57 pm

zen_mistress wrote:

No they aren't required by Islam to wear burkas, get your facts straight. It is a custom, which means it is optional. And yes it is a religious dress whether you find it oppressive or not so let's not get into seblantics.

zen_mistress wrote:

I have 0 tolerance for seeing women enshrouded in those garments. Little girls as young as 4 are dressed like this. A woman has to don this as soon as she reaches womanhood, which is basically between 11 and 14. That is very young to have to dress like that for the rest of your life.

And I will never stop speaking out about it. I am a person who loves my freedom and I would love that sort of luxury for every woman around the world and I will never stop speaking out about it.

OK?

No one said the man has the right to force his wife to wear it, but the wife has the right to choose what she wears. Showing cleavage can be considered just as degrading as covering yourself up. Why should either of em be illegal?

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12 Apr 2011, 5:06 pm

Are we discussing this from a political or ethical point of view?

Either way, I don't see that the veil is somehow infringing on the public's rights-
my mother's homophobic, she doesn't have a "right" to have all references to gay people removed from her society.

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Tequila
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12 Apr 2011, 5:08 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:

]No they aren't required by Islam to wear burkas, get your facts straight. It is a custom, which means it is optional.

I suspect that niqabs 'optional' in quite a lot of cases in this country. Wear them or your husband/community will give you grief about it/beat you up? There are some (often white convert) Muslims who wear it out of defiance but they probably have their own issues - to wear a garment like that when it is used to oppress so many women is, I believe, sick.

And how can anyone say a burqa is optional? Have you seen people wearing those sartorial prisons in Afghanistan? I'm willing to bet any amount of money that the women beneath them would dearly like to wear Western dress and not be encased in those shrouds but they don't know any different. That's not freedom; that's imprisonment.

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12 Apr 2011, 5:09 pm

Bethie wrote:

Either way, I don't see that the veil is somehow infringing on the public's rights-

Can I wear my balaclava in a bank? If not, why not? Muslim women wear the niqab.

Tequila
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12 Apr 2011, 5:16 pm

Bethie wrote:

Are we discussing this from a political or ethical point of view?

This is a much bigger issue in the UK than it is in the US as niqabs and the like are far more common in Britain and France.

When people refer to the burqa in the Western world, they are more likely referring to the niqab:

A hijab looks like this. It is, more or less, just a headscarf. I don't have any problem with women wearing this:

And then there is the most dehumanising, egregious garment of the lot - the burqa. I have seen women wearing these here, although not that often (and I live near a town that has a fairly large Muslim population in comparison to most of the UK although not as much as somewhere like Blackburn - which I also live fairly near - or Dewsbury).

Burqa:

I find some forms of Islamic dress very sexy - the Singaporean/Malaysian tudung, for example. But you can see and interact with the (often very attractive) wearers. How can you properly interact with someone encased in a burqa?

cdfox7
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12 Apr 2011, 5:37 pm

Tequila wrote:

Bethie wrote:

Either way, I don't see that the veil is somehow infringing on the public's rights-

Can I wear my balaclava in a bank? If not, why not? Muslim women wear the niqab.

Wat ye doin' en da bank er la? doin' a withdrawal? Look theres da bizzies rofl :lol:

Tequila
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12 Apr 2011, 5:40 pm

cdfox7 wrote:

Wat ye doin' en da bank er la? doin' a withdrawal? Look theres da bizzies rofl :lol:

Better make sure the getaway driver makes sure to keep an eye on the hubcaps.

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12 Apr 2011, 5:47 pm

Tequila wrote:

cdfox7 wrote:

Wat ye doin' en da bank er la? doin' a withdrawal? Look theres da bizzies rofl :lol:

Better make sure the getaway driver makes sure to keep an eye on the hubcaps.

Eh Eh wacker, clam down, clam down!!

Tequila
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12 Apr 2011, 5:51 pm

cdfox7 wrote:

Eh Eh wacker, clam down, clam down!!

zen_mistress
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12 Apr 2011, 6:04 pm

Of course, Tequila has to turn this into a thread about restaurants..

But anyway I dont really see the point in arguing anymore. If people cannot see anything wrong with the idea of purdah- the custom of secluding women, and brainwashing them into believing they must seclude themselves behind screens both inside and outside their houses, then all I can say is

:?:

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Tequila
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12 Apr 2011, 6:06 pm

No, I never did. I posted a photo of clams, in keeping with the typo.

Carry on firing away about niqabs/burqas all you like.

cdfox7
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12 Apr 2011, 6:25 pm

Sorry for thos who don't speak the Scouse language, I was pointing one reason for wearing a balaclava inside a bank, to rob it.

Tequila
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12 Apr 2011, 6:30 pm

Yip. Which is why banks (or the general public!) won't take favourably to someone wearing a balaclava. Why should a niqab be any different?

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