do hippies not realize how homophobic muslims are

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Thank you for educating this bumpkin, Herr Dragon. I do understand the point that Islamic customs fall along different parameters in some ways from those common in Western Christianity, but I was to a large extent trying to illustrate the point that we should be conscious of how Islamic fundamentalists can often do similar things to what fundamentalists on our own shores. I figured that the example of Muhammad's b-day would bring it closer to home, but perhaps there are better examples.

But the really important thing that fundamentalists in both cultures have in common, I think, is that they tend to make a pretense that they are the only existing and valid definition of their religion. Christian fundamentalists literally treat other Christians as if they don't exist or as if they are really just doing a poor job of imitating the "real thing." Yet they are often behaving in this way toward Christian traditions and beliefs that are a lot older and more deeply rooted in a culture than their dumb sect.

And here is the sticking point. The way I see it, a lot of the Islamic fundamentalists are using accusations of "Western cultural imperialism" to help justify their own form of imperialism. I see them trying to stamp out the dying embers of cultures that are as old as the crust of the Earth. This is deplorable in its own right, and what burns me up is that they know very well how duplicitous their behavior is.

I don't know a whole lot about your part of the world, but I know I've seen what fundamentalists are capable of doing. They destroy and ruin everything they touch. They are like locusts. What is left is an empty shell of what once was.

HAHAHAHA!

I guess I just like to separate my foreign policy opinions and stances regarding military action against terrorism from the debate on the religion and culture of Islam. There are just too many Americans taking the "conservative" label who rub me the wrong way in their us vs. them mentality. Like I can't claim to see legitimate grievances on both sides of the Israeli-Palistinian conflict without getting labeled a supporter of suicide bombers and Islamic extremism.

Really, I condemn backwards fundamentalism of all stripes, especially the repressive Islamic brand. I just think militaristic clash-of-civilizations talk is counterproductive. There is no military solution to the problem of religious fundamentalism. Also, when I put things into perspective it seems like the terrorism threat and fear of things like Sharia law being imposed on western society is overblown to the point of being comical, if it wasn't so sad. I see Muslims as the victims of fundamentalism. They are the ones who have to deal with that s**t on an everyday basis and suffer the worst repercussions from it. When you have westerners talking about all Muslims as if they were an enemy they are imitating the exact same mentality of the Islamic whackos. It's almost like each side wants the same thing. Both are just itching to pour fuel on the fire.

I have a little more sympathy for European Islamophobes as I realize they have a sizable minority of homegrown Islamic whackos on the other side of the pond. But here in the US I really don't understand it.

That may be a regionalism as well. As much as I sort or argued with indicating the whole were like that I think Will and Bethie are right that rural conservatives would tend to be more that way (I still wouldn't believe 'all though') while I've noticed urban conservatives - especially where I live in Cleveland where liberalism has the upper hand and likely in many cases where this is the situation, the role does reverse, the side with the more numbers gets sloppy, and its the minority opinion that ends up being sharpened and nuanced more often (kind of like what Dox would say about his area near Seattle).


And you are absolutely right - moderate muslims are the victims of fundamentalism. The challenge they have though is steeper, just in that to secularize or individualize faith choices is much more difficult the way their book is laid out. Zuhdi Jasser seems to have some good ideas was well as many other muslims who really want to bring Islam to the stage of behavior and social cohesion that Christianity and Judaism are generally at today.


I think I have a pretty good guess as to what its about, and when I had the chance to go to Australia and hear about their historical culture its funny - they have very much the same ethic and very much the same zero tolerance (or at least did under Ron Howard). Staties and Aussies have an anti-authority streak, the historical 'Don't tread on me' attitude, don't want to be told what to do, we want to live our lives as we wish to live them, and having something forced on us that we don't believe in sets our blood boiling fast.

I remember that I was pretty politically neutral in my teens, didn't think much of it, spend the time from 19 to 21 going to three day raves and partying with all kinds of people, lol, I still did even after I knew that I was a staunch conservative just because I liked all that so long as they didn't start talking politics . For me though when I remember September 11 2001 I got dragged in because, like most people I wanted to live my life uninterrupted, I wanted to just have a nice house in the suburbs with 2.2 kids, I didn't want anyone bringing me drama or infringing on my bubble. 9/11 was just that - Bin Laden stepped on our toes in a big way not only by his actions but reminding us that there are large swaths of people who, if they had their way, would have us subjugated as dimis and really have it in their intent to force their ways and beliefs on us. Obviously it wasn't until my mid 20's that I really had the chance to trace it all backward, read up on the history of Israel, figure out who Bin Laden was or where he came from, to understand the kind of mess we're really in with giving billions of dollars a day to countries run by people who want to see our demise and the wide eyed believers - rather than becoming more civilized - becoming more empowered for jihad.

That said I think what we achieved last weekend is going to be worth more than we know in terms of ripple effects, I just worry and hope that a) we don't have to hash it out with Pakistan and b) that the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't take the whole south side of the Mediterranean, especially Egypt and the Suez canal.