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What does the U.S Get from its support of Israel?

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Inuyasha
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26 May 2011, 11:26 am

heylelshalem wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
In general there is no doubt the Israelis are an exceedingly talented and industrious bunch and there is no doubting their huge capabilities, They have also placed themselves in a geographical and social context with no regard to the huge hatreds for their aggressive policies. There is an underlying paranoid hysteria which is driving much of their politics and prevents them from coming to terms with the reality of their situation which would be much alleviated by accepting some sort of humanitarian decency towards the original inhabitants of the area they have persecuted to flee. But their attitude seems irretrievably fixed and, in the long run, likely to end in huge violence that may well destroy everyone concerned. Their stock of atomic weapons makes them far too dangerous to tolerate in the long run and advocates within Israel who are prepared to create huge destruction in the final event that Israel may not be sustainable may make the Holocaust look like a picnic. It's a frightful situation, not sustainable in the long run, and the Israelis do not seem particularly sane.


Easy to say, but the neighbors want to kill the Israelis. That makes being humane and decent a tad difficult.

ruveyn


Whatever justice may be involved on either side the inevitable outcome looks to be frightful and there seems little effort by the participants to avoid that final horrible end.


No, I will point out only one side wants peace, the Israelis. The Palestinians seem to want to murder every Jew down to the last baby. You don't negotiate with someone that wants to exterminate you.


but whos doing the better job at exterminating!! thats the question.

Since the beginning of the Intifada to April 9th, 2005:

3,225 Palestinians killed by Israelis (3,135 by military in the territories, 54 by military inside Israel, 34 by settlers in the territories)
950 Israelis killed by Palestinians (431 inside Israel, 218 settlers, 218 soldiers on duty)
Source: B'tselem, BBC [1]


The BBC is hardly an objective source, they have even been accused of anti-semitism and that accusation isn't groundless.

Furthermore, the Israelis have never been out to exterminate the Palestinians, if they had the Palestinians would have already been completely eradicated a long time ago.

The number of casualties is due to the fact terrorist groups like Hamas love using children as human shields and propaganda pieces. The BBC especially enjoys not mentioning this fact, because it promotes their false narrative of the Palestinians being innocent victims.



Sand
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26 May 2011, 11:54 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

I have seen no answer to that and I am much interested. I have not seen any indication that the Israelis apologized or offered compensation for the attack nor a denial that they were aware it was an American ship at the initiation of the attack. Their aggressive response to people confessing the reality of the attack is a signal that something extremely curious is going on.


So curious, it has never happened again since 1967, the middle of a war.

An ex gratia indemnification was made by Israel to the U.S.

"Indemnities often involve competing considerations for the paying nation. Governments may be slow for legal reasons to admit fault but quick for diplomatic reasons to demonstrate concern. These tensions are frequently resolved by characterization of payments as ex gratia humanitarian gestures and not admissions of liability. So, for example, Israel made an ex gratia payment after its accidental 1967 attack on the USS Liberty. The United States' payment in the Japanese trawler incident was also ex gratia."

Damages done during a war are not generally compensated, but Israel paid some money to the U.S. to keep things "peaceful".

If the U.S. had informed the IDF that a U.S. ship was smack in the middle of a war zone, the entire thing might not have occurred.

ruveyn




ruveyn


Since you are totally committed to the concept that Israel can do no harm I would only expect you to ignore the information in my quote. Naturally you fulfilled my expectations.



Inuyasha
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26 May 2011, 12:00 pm

Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

I have seen no answer to that and I am much interested. I have not seen any indication that the Israelis apologized or offered compensation for the attack nor a denial that they were aware it was an American ship at the initiation of the attack. Their aggressive response to people confessing the reality of the attack is a signal that something extremely curious is going on.


So curious, it has never happened again since 1967, the middle of a war.

An ex gratia indemnification was made by Israel to the U.S.

"Indemnities often involve competing considerations for the paying nation. Governments may be slow for legal reasons to admit fault but quick for diplomatic reasons to demonstrate concern. These tensions are frequently resolved by characterization of payments as ex gratia humanitarian gestures and not admissions of liability. So, for example, Israel made an ex gratia payment after its accidental 1967 attack on the USS Liberty. The United States' payment in the Japanese trawler incident was also ex gratia."

Damages done during a war are not generally compensated, but Israel paid some money to the U.S. to keep things "peaceful".

If the U.S. had informed the IDF that a U.S. ship was smack in the middle of a war zone, the entire thing might not have occurred.

ruveyn




ruveyn


Since you are totally committed to the concept that Israel can do no harm I would only expect you to ignore the information in my quote. Naturally you fulfilled my expectations.


You seriously underestimated ruveyn and myself, neither of us are dumb enough to take what the BBC says at their word, particularly when it involves Israel (especially when you look at the BBC's trackrecord).



Sand
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26 May 2011, 12:31 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

I have seen no answer to that and I am much interested. I have not seen any indication that the Israelis apologized or offered compensation for the attack nor a denial that they were aware it was an American ship at the initiation of the attack. Their aggressive response to people confessing the reality of the attack is a signal that something extremely curious is going on.


So curious, it has never happened again since 1967, the middle of a war.

An ex gratia indemnification was made by Israel to the U.S.

"Indemnities often involve competing considerations for the paying nation. Governments may be slow for legal reasons to admit fault but quick for diplomatic reasons to demonstrate concern. These tensions are frequently resolved by characterization of payments as ex gratia humanitarian gestures and not admissions of liability. So, for example, Israel made an ex gratia payment after its accidental 1967 attack on the USS Liberty. The United States' payment in the Japanese trawler incident was also ex gratia."

Damages done during a war are not generally compensated, but Israel paid some money to the U.S. to keep things "peaceful".

If the U.S. had informed the IDF that a U.S. ship was smack in the middle of a war zone, the entire thing might not have occurred.

ruveyn




ruveyn


Since you are totally committed to the concept that Israel can do no harm I would only expect you to ignore the information in my quote. Naturally you fulfilled my expectations.


You seriously underestimated ruveyn and myself, neither of us are dumb enough to take what the BBC says at their word, particularly when it involves Israel (especially when you look at the BBC's trackrecord).


Since you are putting yourself and ruveyn on the line insofar as intellect is concerned I'm afraid my evaluation does not coincide with yours.



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26 May 2011, 1:55 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
heylelshalem wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
In general there is no doubt the Israelis are an exceedingly talented and industrious bunch and there is no doubting their huge capabilities, They have also placed themselves in a geographical and social context with no regard to the huge hatreds for their aggressive policies. There is an underlying paranoid hysteria which is driving much of their politics and prevents them from coming to terms with the reality of their situation which would be much alleviated by accepting some sort of humanitarian decency towards the original inhabitants of the area they have persecuted to flee. But their attitude seems irretrievably fixed and, in the long run, likely to end in huge violence that may well destroy everyone concerned. Their stock of atomic weapons makes them far too dangerous to tolerate in the long run and advocates within Israel who are prepared to create huge destruction in the final event that Israel may not be sustainable may make the Holocaust look like a picnic. It's a frightful situation, not sustainable in the long run, and the Israelis do not seem particularly sane.


Easy to say, but the neighbors want to kill the Israelis. That makes being humane and decent a tad difficult.

ruveyn


Whatever justice may be involved on either side the inevitable outcome looks to be frightful and there seems little effort by the participants to avoid that final horrible end.


No, I will point out only one side wants peace, the Israelis. The Palestinians seem to want to murder every Jew down to the last baby. You don't negotiate with someone that wants to exterminate you.


but whos doing the better job at exterminating!! thats the question.

Since the beginning of the Intifada to April 9th, 2005:

3,225 Palestinians killed by Israelis (3,135 by military in the territories, 54 by military inside Israel, 34 by settlers in the territories)
950 Israelis killed by Palestinians (431 inside Israel, 218 settlers, 218 soldiers on duty)
Source: B'tselem, BBC [1]


The BBC is hardly an objective source, they have even been accused of anti-semitism and that accusation isn't groundless.

Furthermore, the Israelis have never been out to exterminate the Palestinians, if they had the Palestinians would have already been completely eradicated a long time ago.

The number of casualties is due to the fact terrorist groups like Hamas love using children as human shields and propaganda pieces. The BBC especially enjoys not mentioning this fact, because it promotes their false narrative of the Palestinians being innocent victims.


Most Palestinians are innocent victims. As you yourself have stated, Hamas uses then as human shields when the Israeli bombs start flying.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Inuyasha
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26 May 2011, 2:09 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
heylelshalem wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:
In general there is no doubt the Israelis are an exceedingly talented and industrious bunch and there is no doubting their huge capabilities, They have also placed themselves in a geographical and social context with no regard to the huge hatreds for their aggressive policies. There is an underlying paranoid hysteria which is driving much of their politics and prevents them from coming to terms with the reality of their situation which would be much alleviated by accepting some sort of humanitarian decency towards the original inhabitants of the area they have persecuted to flee. But their attitude seems irretrievably fixed and, in the long run, likely to end in huge violence that may well destroy everyone concerned. Their stock of atomic weapons makes them far too dangerous to tolerate in the long run and advocates within Israel who are prepared to create huge destruction in the final event that Israel may not be sustainable may make the Holocaust look like a picnic. It's a frightful situation, not sustainable in the long run, and the Israelis do not seem particularly sane.


Easy to say, but the neighbors want to kill the Israelis. That makes being humane and decent a tad difficult.

ruveyn


Whatever justice may be involved on either side the inevitable outcome looks to be frightful and there seems little effort by the participants to avoid that final horrible end.


No, I will point out only one side wants peace, the Israelis. The Palestinians seem to want to murder every Jew down to the last baby. You don't negotiate with someone that wants to exterminate you.


but whos doing the better job at exterminating!! thats the question.

Since the beginning of the Intifada to April 9th, 2005:

3,225 Palestinians killed by Israelis (3,135 by military in the territories, 54 by military inside Israel, 34 by settlers in the territories)
950 Israelis killed by Palestinians (431 inside Israel, 218 settlers, 218 soldiers on duty)
Source: B'tselem, BBC [1]


The BBC is hardly an objective source, they have even been accused of anti-semitism and that accusation isn't groundless.

Furthermore, the Israelis have never been out to exterminate the Palestinians, if they had the Palestinians would have already been completely eradicated a long time ago.

The number of casualties is due to the fact terrorist groups like Hamas love using children as human shields and propaganda pieces. The BBC especially enjoys not mentioning this fact, because it promotes their false narrative of the Palestinians being innocent victims.


Most Palestinians are innocent victims. As you yourself have stated, Hamas uses then as human shields when the Israeli bombs start flying.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Innocent victims don't teach their children to want to be suicide bombers when they grow up.



Vexcalibur
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26 May 2011, 2:15 pm

Because all Palestinians do that.

hardy harr harr


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Inuyasha
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26 May 2011, 2:20 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Because all Palestinians do that.

hardy harr harr


I'm not saying all Palestinians do that, I'm saying their school system does that.

Also I don't find the situation amusing, I find it to be sad.

Right now, I would say the blood is on the hands of Palestinians (particularly Hamas), not the Israelis.



Sand
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26 May 2011, 8:30 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Because all Palestinians do that.

hardy harr harr


I'm not saying all Palestinians do that, I'm saying their school system does that.

Also I don't find the situation amusing, I find it to be sad.

Right now, I would say the blood is on the hands of Palestinians (particularly Hamas), not the Israelis.


Considering the balance of casualties on both sides I can only agree that Palestinians doubtless are doing more bleeding.



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26 May 2011, 10:20 pm

Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Because all Palestinians do that.

hardy harr harr


I'm not saying all Palestinians do that, I'm saying their school system does that.

Also I don't find the situation amusing, I find it to be sad.

Right now, I would say the blood is on the hands of Palestinians (particularly Hamas), not the Israelis.


Considering the balance of casualties on both sides I can only agree that Palestinians doubtless are doing more bleeding.


Tough titty for them....



Sand
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26 May 2011, 10:30 pm

Raptor wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Because all Palestinians do that.

hardy harr harr


I'm not saying all Palestinians do that, I'm saying their school system does that.

Also I don't find the situation amusing, I find it to be sad.

Right now, I would say the blood is on the hands of Palestinians (particularly Hamas), not the Israelis.


Considering the balance of casualties on both sides I can only agree that Palestinians doubtless are doing more bleeding.


Tough titty for them....


A great encapsulation of your character.



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27 May 2011, 8:36 am

Sand wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Because all Palestinians do that.

hardy harr harr


I'm not saying all Palestinians do that, I'm saying their school system does that.

Also I don't find the situation amusing, I find it to be sad.

Right now, I would say the blood is on the hands of Palestinians (particularly Hamas), not the Israelis.


Considering the balance of casualties on both sides I can only agree that Palestinians doubtless are doing more bleeding.


Tough titty for them....


A great encapsulation of your character.


And you are obviously a sympathizer of terrorism ...........



Sand
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27 May 2011, 9:31 am

Raptor wrote:
Sand wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Because all Palestinians do that.

hardy harr harr


I'm not saying all Palestinians do that, I'm saying their school system does that.

Also I don't find the situation amusing, I find it to be sad.

Right now, I would say the blood is on the hands of Palestinians (particularly Hamas), not the Israelis.


Considering the balance of casualties on both sides I can only agree that Palestinians doubtless are doing more bleeding.


Tough titty for them....


A great encapsulation of your character.


And you are obviously a sympathizer of terrorism ...........


And you are obviously either totally uninformed of the long and very ugly history of the situation or merely a total sadist or probably both.



parrow
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27 May 2011, 11:19 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
None of that is an American national interest concern.
lets try to focus.


If a pure American national interest is the only concern, there is no reason for us to have any concerns for non-American's. We can sit back and do our own thing, and just nuke to extinction anyone who violates our sovereignty. If we need middle east oil we could just exterminate to locals and take the oil ourselves. Or better yet how about we just enslave the locals and force them to do the work and give us their oil?

There is more life than just American national interests. Restricting arguments to only that issue brings absurdity.



Inuyasha
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27 May 2011, 1:37 pm

Sand wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Sand wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Sand wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Because all Palestinians do that.

hardy harr harr


I'm not saying all Palestinians do that, I'm saying their school system does that.

Also I don't find the situation amusing, I find it to be sad.

Right now, I would say the blood is on the hands of Palestinians (particularly Hamas), not the Israelis.


Considering the balance of casualties on both sides I can only agree that Palestinians doubtless are doing more bleeding.


Tough titty for them....


A great encapsulation of your character.


And you are obviously a sympathizer of terrorism ...........


And you are obviously either totally uninformed of the long and very ugly history of the situation or merely a total sadist or probably both.


Looks to me that you are either uniformed or a supporter of terrorism.

The Israelis are not responsible for the deaths of those that Hamas uses as human shields, Hamas is.



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27 May 2011, 1:46 pm

parrow wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
None of that is an American national interest concern.
lets try to focus.


If a pure American national interest is the only concern, there is no reason for us to have any concerns for non-American's. We can sit back and do our own thing, and just nuke to extinction anyone who violates our sovereignty. If we need middle east oil we could just exterminate to locals and take the oil ourselves. Or better yet how about we just enslave the locals and force them to do the work and give us their oil?

There is more life than just American national interests. Restricting arguments to only that issue brings absurdity.


Well, being that the first part constitutes genocide, and the second colonialism, either would clash with our national values, and thus would be well outside our interests.
I suspect you were speaking tongue-in-cheek on the matter, though.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer