Are Jews Basically "Fellow Christians?"

Post Reply New Topic

And have you ever wondered about the reason why the second part of this sentence is true:



Isn't it interesting that Jews are angry at Christians for antisemitism, which is motivated by specific interpretation of Matthew 27 and, at the same time, they are ALSO angry at the Christians who attempt to re-interpret Matthew 27 in order NOT to blame Jews? It just seems like Jews have that anger built within them that they just DONT WANT to forgive Christians for antisemitism. Thus, they would rather see Christians continue to stay antisemites (and stick to "antisemitic" interpretation of Matthew 27) just to make sure that the reconciliation won't be "called for".

This kind of phenomena drew my attention back in the Bush vs Gore campaign. My whole family is Jewish (I became Christian later on as my own personal decision, largely influenced by the incident I am about to describe). So my family was siding with Gore. But my grandmother was really pissed off that Gore selected Liebermann as a vice president. She believed that, because of antisemitism, no one would vote for him (which has been proven wrong: the votes split 50/50 and Gore would have won if not for Florida). Now, my mom responded to her "well at least Gore is sure to get Jewish vote". And my grandmother responded "I don't think any Jews would vote for him either; they would be too angry to do that". Well my first reaction is "why would Jews be ANGRY?" So it means Jews WANT to stay in the ghettos just so that they can pity themselves and they would be "angry" at anyone who would try to effectively change the situation?

Were I hearing or addressing you, mon cher confrère, I would most certainly allow for the possibility of your bringing that precise objection. In fact, even engaged with Arlecchino I thought seriously about covering that issue. But der Motl [hah, I should add that to my list with raml and bitl!] is not such that I would expect him to be going there. In fact his use of "evangelical conservatives" strongly suggests he means the so-called Evangelicals, even though in theology they are not exactly conservative - but motl's theology lacks depth and precision.

He can find Matthew 27, but cannot take the steps to consider that Matthew 27 might not constitute a reason for Christians to dislike Jews, but rather an excuse for people who need no reason to dislike Jews.

Yes, sadly you're right. The same can be said of the treatment of Americans and immigrants of the Islamic faith, and/or of Middle Eastern ethnicity. My Dad had passed stories down to me of how German Americans were suddenly treated as second class citizens - even facing violence and discriminatory legal action - during the First World War.
But the fact remains, I see no widespread Antisemitism in America, as I doubt Jewish terrorists are going to kill Americans, or that we're going to go to war with Israel anytime soon.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

From a theological standpoint, both the Jew and Christian are correct. You single out attitude as if there is no biblical basis for it. The Jews have kept the faith till the 20th century, wherein a few went on to become intellectuals and found secular faiths - which many jews down the line through today continue to join. You folks are very religious, even if that religion is non-abrahamic or non-theistic and a human institution.

Self-imposed ghettos is a human norm of any group who only commerce, relate, and dwell with their own kind, which isn't only limited to Jews - the American parallel would be the many Little Saigon's, Chinatowns, Barrio's, Little Havana, Koreatown, Japantown, Little Italy, Little India, Irishtown, etc. across many of our metropolitans. Of course the second, third, and forth generations - the local population permitting - are better integrated into the society and so often move into middle class within this ghetto and are not afraid to leave it for the suburbs (business and tourism also help). In the US, the Local populations are permitting and people who come here, jewish or whatever their background may be, are - within reason and not crossing any of our nations values - allowed to live as they wish and ghetto's which were formed to protect these groups from outside influence are not as ghetto any more, and the walls are less apparent.

Who says the Jew had to accept anything? This is an invitation to a debate you did not ask for or want, but it is certainly not akin to second-class citizenship and restricted to societally imposed ghettos. Jews fear another holocaust but it won't come from the American Evangelical Right, or from Conservatism in America. The Jewish fear is a legitmate one considering Jewish history, but in a country like America(not Europe, not the Middle East) you have interfaith dialogue with these people you differ with, and make a case for yourself, you accept the theological agreements and disagreements and move on. You might think that Christians are theologically wrong for their position(which they are not) but calling racism where there is none, calling nazism or fascism where there is none, calling xenophobia where there is none, and calling bigotry where there is none renders those words meaningless and allows Judaism irrelevancy and Christianity theological idiocy(hence the great Jewish case I mentioned earlier). The jews are non-messianic for a reason...

Don't forget the Copts, Mandaeans and Parsees.

Just to let you in on something, MarketAndChurch, Democrats, Mainline Protestants, theological liberals, and mainline Catholics aren't going to kill or banish Jews, either.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Yes, but nowhere analogous to the Jews in German prisoner camps, South Vietnamese in North Vietnamese prisoner camps, Ukrainians in Russian prisoner camps, Greeks in Turkish prisoner camps, or any non-japanese in a japanese prisoner camp. The decency of those who rule over you matter, and depriving one of property is not comparable to forced starvation, mutilation, digging your grave, experiments, gas chambers, or human ovens. As soon as we have more then one or two possible outcome of evil, then we can assess gradations of evil, and not allowing one property would not land high on that list.

No, in fact, they are not morally equivalent.

obviously, Evangelicals is the largest religious group in America however and are the ones in the lefts, secular jews, and islam's crosshairs.

Not the Catholics, Democrats, Protestants, theological Liberals.

is this a partisan battle?
do you honestly think secular Jews are for a second Shoah?
Do you think Islams beef with Judaism is not about Palestine?
The world you pretend to live in.

If I ever said that, please feel free to quote me and I will apologize for that - I may mis-speak but I have no problem of reiterating my position more clearly which is:

I write in defense of evangelicals whose intentions are viewed mischeivious by secular jews, islam, and the left and that the support amongst them is for end-days speculations or not genuine. The Secular Jews, theological liberals, and the left also think that the next holocaust will come from the Evangelicals, the American Conservatives, or those on the Right. If - God forbid - another one happens, it won't be from the American Right/Conservatives or Evangelicals, but most likely caused by Islamic fascists.

I am surprised that you are a Christian and you insist that there will be NEVER a persecution in America. At the very least, you have to agree that there WILL be a persecution of Christians by the antichrist. Some non-Christian groups (which might well include Jews) might be thrown in to be persecutted together with Christians. One reason for this might be Jewish refusal to worship antichrist (because it is idolatry) or to take microchip implant (because the Jewish law prohibits putting implants into the body), or the Jewish opposition to peace treaty that antichrist would try to push, and the list goes on and on.

One of the main reasons the Jews were persecutted before (not only by Christians but also by Muslims and communists, let alone pre-Christian times when they suffered under Pharaoh in Egypet and in Babilon) is that they don't "go along with a program". In some cases it is good: they would refuse to worship false gods of babylon or adhere to communism. In other cases it is bad: they refused Christianity. But the bottom line is that it is their character. They have independant minds, whatever it leads to. Thus, their "independant minds" created Christianity and communism and, at the same time, they were too independant to stick with the ideologies they themselves created. Thus, most original christians were Jews, and Jews are also the only people in the Christian nations that refused to accept Christianity. Liewise, Most original communists were Jews, and the biggest opposition to communism also came from the Jews.

It is very likely the same trend might be repeated when antichrist will come. Jews will be the first ones to hail him as their messiah; but then when he will claim to be god himself Jews will quickly turn their backs on him since this will be idolatry. As a result, they might well be prime targets of persecution, even if they will continue to refuse Christianity. After all, antichrist's beef is not just with Christians but with anyone and everyone who refuses to go along with the program. This might well include Jews. I read that there is some evidence that they plan to get rid of 92% of the population that are considered to be "not authentically human" (see http://www.moresureword.com/GAStones.htm ).

Given that antichrist might well pretend to be Christian, this might, in fact, be "Christian persecution of Jews" all over again. In fact, in order for antichrist to deceive Christians, he will HAVE to impersonate Jesus. Since Jews are determined not to accept Jesus, they will reject antichrist the moment he does it. And then, while pretending to be "Jesus" he will persecute Jews for rejecting him on his second comming and then, again pretending to be jesus, also "add" the fact that Jews supposedly crucified him on his first comming.

Last edited by Roman on 14 Jul 2011, 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I am not sure whether you were referring to my quote



But I suspect you were, since it was the only time when "ghettos" were brought up.

If thats the case, you misunderstood what I was saying. I meant to use the word "ghettos" metaphorically. In other words, I was not referring to separate places to live, but rather to the fact that Jewish success is limitted due to antisemitism. The metaphoric reference comes from the fact that in 19-th century Europe in various countries Jews were forced to live in ghettos by the state. And this came together with other policies that would limit the kinds of jobs Jews could have, and so forth.

When I said "Jews preferred to stay in ghettos" I meant that they have victim mentality so deeply inside that in some sense they WANT to continue to be "persecutted ones" in order to get sympathy and/or a justification of continued grudges against non-jews. Thus, if the apportunity to "get out of ghettos" (that is, become successful) presents itself, they get angry and refuse -- just like my grandma got angry at the Gore selecting Liebermann for vise president.

By the same logic, when Christians decide to reinterpret Mattew 27 and say that Jews are NOT guilty for "killing Christ", Jews don't like that either. Jews would prefer if Christians continued to refer to them as "Christ killers" since that would reinforce their victim mentality that they feel so "at home" with.

You don't have a target pointed on your tender pink a**. I do. It is easy for you to say, since you are neither a target nor a victim. I still feel some of the lumps given to me by anti-semites when I was a kid. In fact one of the reasons I had to learn how to fight dirty was to defend myself against anti-semites. I wish I had a hundred dollars for every time I was told to my face that I, me, personally killed Christ. I would be rich.

I would advise you not to speak of things whereof you are totally blind as a bat ignorant.

ruveyn

ruveyn

So, what are their intentions? Isn't their support of Israel all about

1. Currying blessings for themselves from God; and

2. Getting ready for the rapture, etc.?



I think that you already have the end game worked out, don't you? There is going to be a major war, with Islamic nations attacking Israel; China, Russia, UK and USA all getting involved somehow; and then all of those spooky things described in Revelations (and possibly Ezekiel) are going to come to pass. Israel, USA and UK are the "good guys" in the drama; everyone else is the "bad guys."

I think that you already have the end game worked out, don't you? There is going to be a major war, with Islamic nations attacking Israel; China, Russia, UK and USA all getting involved somehow; and then all of those spooky things described in Revelations (and possibly Ezekiel) are going to come to pass. Israel, USA and UK are the "good guys" in the drama; everyone else is the "bad guys."[/quote]

Forget the Book of Revelations. The history of the Islam domains is one of conquest and expansion.

ruveyn

Okay, first generally when you talk about me you usually are using smear tactics. Which is one of the reasons why I have such a low opinion of you.

Second, Jesus is supposed to be the Son of God, that doesn't mean he is God. Since God created Jesus inside of Mary's womb, he is God's son on the basis he is a creation of God. Both the Jewish Religion and Christianity worship the same God, the Old Testament has Jewish roots. Additionally, Jesus Christ was Jewish!

Third, as far as only Christians and Jewish people getting to heaven, I really wouldn't know cause I'm not God, and I'm still in the land of the living.

Fourth, I really could care less what a bunch of idiots says. Methodists and Catholics are both sects of Christianity.

Fifth, Jesus usually didn't run around claiming he was the Son of God.

In summary, Christians and Jews believe in the same God, whom is a loving God and thus the question as to Jesus's divinity is probably answered when an individual arrives at the Gates of Heaven.

@ ruveyn

I'm sorry that some people are so misinformed that they would accuse you of stuff like that. Those responsible for the death of Jesus consisted of a few corrupt individuals, not the Jewish people as a whole. That's like blaming every atheist for the actions of Mao or Joseph Stalin, it's stupid and only creates more bigotry. He was also supposed to be the sacrifice that absolved everyone of their sins, and in his case death wasn't as final for him as it would be for the rest of us.