The "No Kids Allowed" Movement

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so this is the comment about concentrtation camps..
sounds sick right... i know what those kind of camps are.... it's where inoccent poeple are sloughtered becuase some think they don't belong... very sad to think that one would put a old person or a young person in a place that is so cold... and just disturbing

i'm only stating this becuase it is a concern to any and all whoi value life. i hope this is the last thing i have to say.

and of course I don't mean to start another issue. it is just very concerning that one would like the concentration camp idea...
it is a scary thought.

the world is a sensible place and nightmares are not real. it is very fortunate that 99% of people are good. you should not fear anything because you are safe in this world that is very regulated for safety.

it would be good if you could sleep without worry tonight and wake up tomorrow without any apprehension, and enjoy the day.

but i do not think you can because you are locked up in doubt.

So...

do we agree that we can not agree on this topic?

yes and it is bloody cold and my electric blanket is warm and this conversation is not sufficient to stop me from going to sleep between my covers very soon indeed.
in fact... good night now.

From the land of perpetual heatwaves I must say, I'm quite jealous.

This issue, ( of whether or not to ban children from certain places ), would not even crop up if there was not a double-standard in force, that which implicitly allows children to behave differently from adults when there is no reason why they should, ... other than being used to/having "learned" the double standard.

eg. "Boredom", which several posters have already referred to: large numbers of people seem to think that it is perfectly normal that children will "misbehave"/make a lot of noise/become "disruptive" etc in restaurants because they are bored ...

1 ) Why would children get more bored in restaurants than adults?
2 ) Why would children make more noise when bored than adults?

About babies and crying: I understand the reactions to this. I detest it too. But when I was travelling in South Africa, ( and in Turkey and Greece ) I noticed that children simply didn't cry so much there.

Long crowded bus journeys with dozens of bablies and infants on board, and interminable waits for buses/trains to arrive/leave, etc were not nightmares of bawling brats and twisting yelling screaming etc kids having tantrums, being "overtired" etc that they are in the UK etc. ...

Why? What is it about western culture's treatment/upbringing etc of children that leads babies to cry so much, infants to yell and scream and fight and older children to act out" often destructively/disruptively in so many places?

Before the "Emancipation of Women" in the late 19th and early 20th century women were banned from several kinds of "public" space, men's clubs, certain rooms in pubs/bars, and of course parliament, and most administrative areas, except on special "open days"/"fetes" etc, in the same way as non-white races were from many places until even more recently in many/most western ( esp anglophone ) countries.

When it was suggested that women should be able to use some of these spaces many men said that the language used was too "coarse" for the women's delicate sensibilities, and most men agreed that they themselves would not be able to relax properly with women there, that the women's presence, chatter and laughter, etc would disturb them.

... My belief is that one huge factor in why children have become both more likely to act-out, more stressed and bored in otherwise "adult" environments, AND why their presence has become more and more unwelcome to adults, is national public school, which is a fairly recent invention which has taken children off the streets, made them strangers to most adults who aren't their parents, and turned environments which were perfectly appropriate for all ages into age-specific places.

Children have become the "unwashed", as someone said "second class citizens", and/OR "work" ( which want time-off from ) for their respective adults, ( burdened with their sole-care compared with earlier times when large numbers of adults in a community could and did act as "overseeers" etc, and intervene ).

And children have become unused to "adult" environments ( outside the home ), have become increasingly used to situations and environments which are specifically, indeed almost exclusively, *for* children, either providing them with entertainment or in which they are corralled/directed and not free.
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Because their brains are actively growing and developing. Haven't you noticed how small their heads are?

Temporal lobes don't even fully develop until people are nearly 20.

For a small child, the world is very different and they are very stimulated by new experiences, and conversely unstimulated (bored) by things they have already experienced.

They cannot be expected to behave any more than an untrained dog can be expected to behave.

And while they do need training to learn how to behave in a restaurant, they can do that at Denny's.

Anyway, this is what I wanted to post once I had got to them.

In the cathedral city of Chester, north-west England, there is a famous pub that is choc-a-bloc with World War I memorabilia. Outside the pub there are these signs, which have made the pub the cause of national and international TV and travel guide attention.

One of them reads...



And the text is underneath, transcribed for posterity.

The point is that this pub has been discussed as a case on the British pub/beer blogs before as a pub that nails its colours fairly to the mast in a way that might be considered a bit eccentric. I visited the pub and didn't see any dress-code in force. Then again, there were no children either. There was keg lager and cider on the bar though! Horror of horrors, they wouldn't have had that in 1914. The pint of Harviestoun Bitter & Twisted (4.2%) went down very well though.

I guess my point is that I agree with the publican, although I think he goes about it in a rather obnoxious way. Pubs, restaurants and all the rest of it are businesses. Therefore, they must be able to decide who they admit and who they don't admit. In the UK, it's illegal for a parent to take a child to watch The Human Centipede or Irreversible (of course, the sequel to The Human Centipede was banned outright here) the at the cinema for instance because the film is legally restricted to adults, whereas in the US it isn't. And from what I hear, watching films like that with seven or eight year old children present, as they are legally obliged to do, is unpleasant. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the more upmarket cinema chains that play these sorts of movies have an 18+ or even 21+ policy in them for a reason. It doesn't make it at all right but they perceive them to be a problem then they have the right to not admit people.

What is not alright is something like The Mosquito, where significant sections of the ordinary public are aurally assaulted every single time they pass a box emitting a high-pitched whine, even if they are on the other side of the street. I campaigned against these in my home town, for instance.



Are you from the UK? A lot of pubs were like this before the smoking ban that was forced onto the statute book here in the UK in 2007. As a complete coincidence, pubs that year closed at around six times the rate they had been doing the previous year, and this rose even more the year after.



I can't remember much at the time but I think I probably supported a smoking ban in pubs. When it happened, though, and I saw the results, I turned against it. As the years have gone by I have turned against it with increasing force.

Now, I suspect that there are probably more people who want an amendment to the smoking ban that there are people who wish for it to stay in place. On a pubs and beer blog I read, about 80% out of 100 people who filled in the survey suggest that they would like at least some provision to be made for smokers. It's a nasty, vindictive, divisive piece of law.

Having said that, though, I doubt the pub culture will ever be same in the UK and that it's probably too late to salvage it. It's dying.



There's no problem with that, not at all. People can have a pint and socialise in peace.



Exactly; and it's these people, who have no manners and expect everyone else to think that their child's destructive behaviour is brilliant, who ruin things. Not necessarily the children. You can't say anything to them because they'll either get you thrown out or they'll threaten or administer violence, either now or later on.



And this is exactly how pubs and restaurants lose their clientele - because they try to cater to a smaller number of very noisy, very aggressive patrons rather than the silent majority. Whoever shouts loudest gets heard. Same every time, so it is.



Again, if they want to have somewhere to take their children, take them to McDonald's, or a 'pretend adult' restaurant! Geesh!



Well, that's what generally happens in the end. The vultures circle and all the decent punters who were there before simply decide never to come back. I've stopped going to pubs altogether because there is very little in it for me any more.



Exactly; it's as I said. In pandering to one group they forget everyone else. I'm glad you didn't go back.

The size of a person's brain in infancy has nothing to do with it.

Many children actually love to do, or watch, or read, the same thing over and over again. ie. They actually *like* the familiar.

Restaurants, full of people that a child has never seen before, food they may not eat at home, music and furniture and crockery and cutlery, and service, that they don't have at home or at school, must in fact be one of the environments children know least well, therefore, by your reckoning, the least distressingly boring for most children.

... So could argue that it's actually stress rather than boredom which provokes the disruptive behaviour.

But if children/infants in the west may not be used to suppressing feelings of stress, unease, or boredom, and likely to make a noise about it ... the training in not doing so appears to happen at a much younger age, ( by two years or so ) in many non-western cultures ... ie. this chronic/widespread acting-out/yelling/screaming/tantrums etc is a western phenomenon, not universal.

So I repeat my question: why do children in the west get so bored, or stressed, in restaurants?

And if in fact they are *not* actually any more bored or stressed than adults in such places ... why do children in the west make so much more noise about it than children in S. Africa, Turkey or Greece?
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Exactly. The prefrontal cortex also doesn't completely develop until somewhere in the 20's, which is involved in impulse control, forethought, executive function, etc. All these arguments about kids being equivalent to adults is absurd and don't have any connection to reality but are only connected to some abstract pondering.

As I just replied on the previous page to blauSamstag:

The west has some very strange ideas about children, and their capacities. In fact western society as a whole tends to infantilise people, which includes holding-back the development of independent activity and self-governing skills in children, systematically excluding them from full-participation in society until the advanced age of 16-18 or even 21.
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That pub's sign should read, "No music, No food, No fun!"
Seriously, sounds like a crap pub to me.

It did feel a tad oppressive inside but the beer was reasonable enough and, IIRC, about what I'd expect to pay in any other pub in this part of the country.

In Britain, a lot of people like pubs without music as they're meant to be a place for conversation. A lot of places have jukeboxes blaring out loud pop/rock songs so that one can't hear anyone speak.

JDW (a pub chain serving what used to be very cheap beer but somewhat less so these days) doesn't have any music in their pubs, and they have branches across the UK.

I hate going out and paying for a meal, only to have several tables of noisy children and screaming babies come in. The parents never do more than a couple shushes, which are completely ineffective, if they even do anything at all. Why is discipline so frowned upon these days?

I end up wolfing down ~$15 worth of food that I'd rather enjoy at a slow pace, just so I can leave. All while resisting the urge to walk over and smack the living s**t out of the b***h who just ignores the incessant shrieking of her precious little parasites.

I wish every restaurant banned children. I do not understand this mentality that everyone loves kids and places them above adults.

We are talking about intelligence. Not knowledge or experience. When you get at a certain age, you will be statistically weaker both physically and mentally. Because that's what getting old is about. There are exceptions and thankfully you can hope to actually be a strong elder that has a very sharp brain. But that would only happen if you are very healthy right now and you also practice with your brain periodically Odds are against you.

For kids it is the opposite effect. Their bodies and their brain are still in development, this makes them better at certain things, but overall they will be far stronger and have far better brain activity when they reach young adulthood. Which is for everyone really the peak.



It means they are better at learning stuff. In fact, it is an indication that they are empty vials waiting to learn new things because they haven't learned anything at all yet.

You know what's intelligence? Actually inventing technology, not using it. That won't happen until you are 10 years old (if you are lucky).



No ... one ... cares.



Except for criminal children. And they exist.

Children also don't work on actually improving the world



Err, this is completely wrong. They can be such bigots. Humans are by default afraid of what they don't know well and for children, that is a lot more things than with adults. They can discriminate other kids for things as simple as having red hair color.


Children are also pesky selfish, greedy creatures that believe everything is theirs. They are also loud and obnoxious all while thinking they are funny. They are unable of understanding reason, and some of them soil their pants and cause other messes that adults will have to clean up.

But this thread is not about "hating" children or being negative against them. It is about whether restaurants should be allowed to have "no kids allowed" signs so that their older clienthood (you know, the people that pay) can be more comfortable.




As a kid I would have really loved this. Weddings were boring back then.

Err, actually they still are.

I want a no young adults allowed wedding rule.

Seriously, we are talking about obnoxious children when we should be bashing weddings. If random acquaintances want to bang each other, that's great for them. But please, if you are one of them, don't include other human beings into your messes. Don't disrupt their lives with annoying weddings. They don't really care.

You do realize you keep dragging me into this when I already made it clear that we can not agree on this subject

it's time we focused on improving the quality of life for all humans.
think about this... humans need to be happy and we can not be happy if we continue down the path of destruction this world follows.

I know we won't agree on this subject... so we should avoid it for the time being...

i wonder if you actually enjoy arguing and pulling other into your hatred?

I can love... maybe you can't... if you can't love then you can hate... but let me out of this utter nonesense!! !