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What is so bad about socialism anyways?

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Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 2:44 pm

Tequila wrote:
over9000 wrote:
Europeans don't give to charity hardly at all because they know the government will do it for them.


Some people still give to charities; lots don't for that reason but for other reasons too. People especially are hacked off when government actually gives taxpayers' money to charities whose causes are either utterly abhorrent to many or where the idea of them even being charities in the first place is very, very debatable - i.e. lobbying organisations.

If you're a keen drinker, would you voluntarily hand over money to a 'charity' that lobbies for far higher alcohol prices and an even more restrictive set of purchasing rules?


I am not sure how that would be a charity....but anyways I think there are some major issues with how the government uses tax money which need to be adressed. But I do not think they way I claim taxes should be used is all that bad.



parrow
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11 Aug 2011, 2:44 pm

The definition of socialism is a bit to long to re-post in a forum, So here I'll take care of it for you.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=socialism <-- click here

I think the larger problem is the hatred and vilification of capitalism, when capitalism is even less under stood than socialism.

The US is damn near 0% free market capitalism. It's difficult to name one thing you can sell that is not regulated by government. The US income tax code regulates the entire economy.

When people want to bash capitalism by pointing to the US health care system they show their ignorance. The US health care system is about as far from free market capitalism as it can be. There is nothing in health care that is not regulated by the government. In my state all competition has been practically eliminated. Any health care policy sold in my state must be a non-profit company and obey the billions of laws. We have effectively eliminated all real competition, and there are only 3 companies left that sell health insurance.

Did you get that? You can not sell health insurance in my state unless the insurance company is a non-profit corporation! How the hell is that capitalism? It's not. It hasn't been for a long time.



Last edited by parrow on 11 Aug 2011, 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 2:45 pm

Fnord wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
What is so bad about socialism anyways? ... I myself do not think aboslute socialism can work for a large population any better than absolute capitalism would.

You have just provided the best answer to your own question.

Well done, Ms. Leaf.

Well done.


Well that is what I have been arguing more or less.....I suppose people read this thread and think I fully support abosulute socialism and hate everything about capitalism. I think both have some good qualities so both should be applied.



Tequila
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11 Aug 2011, 2:46 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
That argument I can see to a point, but I would hope profit alone is seriously not the only thing that would drive someone to contribute.


You also have the problem of a huge amount of taxpayer's cash being utterly wasted on a regular basis - indeed, there are lobbying organisations like the TaxPayers' Alliance here in the UK that regularly run exposés about this very thing. A lot of public sector bosses have higher wages than even the Prime Minister, for instance - leaders of councils sometimes take home more than 3x what the PM himself earns.

If you see taxpayer's cash being wasted on frivolities, useless schemes, feckless and violent scroungers, violent yobs, fat cat council leaders, quangos and authoritarian "do as I say, not as I do schemes", would you want to work yourself to death funding even more of that than is necessary?

As I said: tax people too much and people will decide only to work for what they need, not for what they want.



Tequila
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11 Aug 2011, 2:47 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I am not sure how that would be a charity...


Alcohol Concern is a registered charity. It receives less than 1% of its donations from the public and nearly 59% of its donations directly from the Department of Health.



Last edited by Tequila on 11 Aug 2011, 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
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11 Aug 2011, 2:49 pm

over9000 wrote:
What is wrong with socialism? I will tell you what is wrong with socialism!

There is nothing more evil than encouraging people to be more dependent on the government. As Ronald Reagan said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" I don't need or want the government's help on anything. Anyone who thinks this sort of thing will work are wide eyed idealists and they need to shut the hell up.

Yes. You tell people to "shut the hell up".... Goddamn idiot.



Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 2:50 pm

Tequila wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
That argument I can see to a point, but I would hope profit alone is seriously not the only thing that would drive someone to contribute.


You also have the problem of a huge amount of taxpayer's cash being utterly wasted on a regular basis - indeed, there are lobbying organisations like the TaxPayers' Alliance here in the UK that regularly run exposés about this very thing. A lot of public sector bosses have higher wages than even the Prime Minister, for instance - leaders of councils sometimes take home more than 3x what the PM himself earns.

If you see taxpayer's cash being wasted on frivolities, useless schemes, feckless and violent scroungers, violent yobs, fat cat council leaders, quangos and authoritarian "do as I say, not as I do schemes", would you want to work yourself to death funding even more of that than is necessary?

As I said: tax people too much and people will decide only to work for what they need, not for what they want.


Like I said I do not like how our government currently uses taxes.....because they seem to put them towards rather useless things rather then nessisary public services. I mean the economy starts going downhill and what are the first things they cut? things people need.



Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 2:51 pm

Tequila wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
I am not sure how that would be a charity...


Alcohol Concern is a registered charity. It receives less than 1% of its donations from the public and nearly 59% of its donations directly from the Department of Health.


Well that's stupid.



Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 2:53 pm

parrow wrote:
The definition of socialism is a bit to long to re-post in a forum, So here I'll take care of it for you.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=socialism <-- click here

I think the larger problem is the hatred and vilification of capitalism, when capitalism is even less under stood than socialism.

The US is damn near 0% free market capitalism. It's difficult to name one thing you can sell that is not regulated by government. The US income tax code regulates the entire economy.

When people want to bash capitalism by pointing to the US health care system they show their ignorance. The US health care system is about as far from free market capitalism as it can be. There is nothing in health care that is not regulated by the government. In my state all competition has been practically eliminated. Any health care policy sold in my state must be a non-profit company and obey the billions of laws. We have effectively eliminated all real competition, and there are only 3 companies left that sell health insurance.

Did you get that? You can not sell health insurance in my state unless the insurance company is a non-profit corporation! How the hell is that capitalism? It's not. It hasn't been for a long time.


Insurance companies are not the government and a lot of times it is the insurance companies making the choices...they tell someone what hospital they can go to, what doctors to go to, they take your money, and then when something happens they try and find a reason to deny you......If anything the government should get rid of insurance companies, but they wont do that because some of their money comes from insurance companies.



Tequila
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11 Aug 2011, 2:55 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
Well that's stupid.


And then there's ASH (plus the seperate charities of ASH Scotland and ASH Wales), the National Obesity Forum, Weight Concern, Alcohol Focus Scotland, the Consensus Action on Salt and Health. All dodgy as hell, all funded by the state, all telling us how to live our lives.

That's the problem with social democracy as practiced here: it is authoritarian and controlling.



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11 Aug 2011, 3:08 pm

marshall wrote:
over9000 wrote:
What is wrong with socialism? I will tell you what is wrong with socialism!

There is nothing more evil than encouraging people to be more dependent on the government. As Ronald Reagan said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" I don't need or want the government's help on anything. Anyone who thinks this sort of thing will work are wide eyed idealists and they need to shut the hell up.

Yes. You tell people to "shut the hell up".... Goddamn idiot.

And you call someone who disagrees with you a "Goddamn idiot".

Pot ... kettle ... black.


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Fnord
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11 Aug 2011, 3:19 pm

Tequila wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well that's stupid.

And then there's ASH (plus the seperate charities of ASH Scotland and ASH Wales), the National Obesity Forum, Weight Concern, Alcohol Focus Scotland, the Consensus Action on Salt and Health. All dodgy as hell, all funded by the state, all telling us how to live our lives. That's the problem with social democracy as practiced here: it is authoritarian and controlling.

Here in the States, we call it "Nannyism" - every aspect of your life is monitored, critiqued, and corrected to match some convoluted standard that was cooked up by a committee of Uber-Nannies that have no direct understanding of what people really need.


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LKL
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11 Aug 2011, 3:25 pm

Fnord wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well that's stupid.

And then there's ASH (plus the seperate charities of ASH Scotland and ASH Wales), the National Obesity Forum, Weight Concern, Alcohol Focus Scotland, the Consensus Action on Salt and Health. All dodgy as hell, all funded by the state, all telling us how to live our lives. That's the problem with social democracy as practiced here: it is authoritarian and controlling.

Here in the States, we call it "Nannyism" - every aspect of your life is monitored, critiqued, and corrected to match some convoluted standard that was cooked up by a committee of Uber-Nannies that have no direct understanding of what people really need.

As opposed to 'Daddyism,' which tells you when and how and whom to have sex with and marry, what religions are ok, and what medical procedures are approved by the state.



Tequila
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11 Aug 2011, 3:32 pm

LKL wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well that's stupid.

And then there's ASH (plus the seperate charities of ASH Scotland and ASH Wales), the National Obesity Forum, Weight Concern, Alcohol Focus Scotland, the Consensus Action on Salt and Health. All dodgy as hell, all funded by the state, all telling us how to live our lives. That's the problem with social democracy as practiced here: it is authoritarian and controlling.

Here in the States, we call it "Nannyism" - every aspect of your life is monitored, critiqued, and corrected to match some convoluted standard that was cooked up by a committee of Uber-Nannies that have no direct understanding of what people really need.

As opposed to 'Daddyism,' which tells you when and how and whom to have sex with and marry, what religions are ok, and what medical procedures are approved by the state.


Neither is at all good.



marshall
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11 Aug 2011, 3:33 pm

Fnord wrote:
marshall wrote:
over9000 wrote:
What is wrong with socialism? I will tell you what is wrong with socialism!

There is nothing more evil than encouraging people to be more dependent on the government. As Ronald Reagan said, "The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'" I don't need or want the government's help on anything. Anyone who thinks this sort of thing will work are wide eyed idealists and they need to shut the hell up.

Yes. You tell people to "shut the hell up".... Goddamn idiot.

And you call someone who disagrees with you a "Goddamn idiot".

Pot ... kettle ... black.


You don't smack someone in the face and not expect retaliation. If you don't want to be called a "goddamn idiot" don't tell me to "shut the hell up".

Also, why are you only bothered by my anger when right-wing trolls call people "hippie fa***ts" and tell people to "shut the hell up"? I'm sorry, but people who spout that kind of garbage for the sake of attention seeking have a prepubescent middle school mentality and I would say that most people with a 12 year old mind are indeed idiots.



Sweetleaf
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11 Aug 2011, 3:33 pm

Tequila wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Well that's stupid.


And then there's ASH (plus the seperate charities of ASH Scotland and ASH Wales), the National Obesity Forum, Weight Concern, Alcohol Focus Scotland, the Consensus Action on Salt and Health. All dodgy as hell, all funded by the state, all telling us how to live our lives.

That's the problem with social democracy as practiced here: it is authoritarian and controlling.


Well yes that is a bit of an issue....my main concern is when the government is not providing public services and allowing huge buisnesses to basically do whatever they want in the name of profit alone. But I certainly do not think the government should be totally dictating how people live..and some of these anti-alchohol lobbies or what ever that even exist here are trying to do just that. same with the cannabis laws, laws against gay marrige and a number of things.