In a socialist society everyone is equal

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Maybe you should look into how many deaths imperialism and capitalism have lead to?.....just saying, capitialism is not so guilt free.

Imperialism is mostly in the past these days (although the Chinese seem to be a bit of an exception to this rule).

And I somewhat doubt that most deaths were down to simple capitalism. I'd bet the farm that all those deaths were because of something far more complicated. People being greedy and killing people for it isn't capitalism, it's just a part of human nature. We're talking about actual deaths, murders, 'disappearances' and so on in support of a political ideology here.

There will always be those who are unable, for whatever reason, to live out their dreams.

I think that the increase in the number of college graduates who are unable to secure employment in their chosen field is due, at least in part, to the fact that nonprofessional jobs are now almost universally viewed as contemptible.

Well yes large scale imperialism is mostly in the past but we do have simular things going on today, The U.S has people who manipulate governments/leaders of other countries for the gain of the U.S. There is a book titled Economic Hit Man which goes into detail about this, and hell just reading up on a lot of the problems going on in the world paint a pretty clear picture of what capitialism has done to the world. We have a few wealthier countries the U.S included exploiting the resources and labor from other countries to keep things running the way they are.

Supposedly we're providing oppurtunities......well give me a break its not about creating oppurtunities in poorer countries its about exploiting the sh*t out of the resources and people of those countries. How is being greedy and killing other people human nature?.....you might as well say being a psychopath is human nature if that is in fact your position. There have been actual deaths, murders, 'disappearances.' and so on directly related to the capitalistic ideology of the U.S.

So its a point to criticize socialism on, but a point to overlook when it comes to capitalism on the grounds that not everyone will be able to live out their dreams? seems like a bit of a bias towards capitalism but against socialism even though its the same criticism.

Also, maybe if parents and school staff did not engrain the idea 'to be something you have to go to college, or you will be burger flipping garbage.'........I never have been able to figure out what it is people have against people who cook and serve the very fast food you eat when you're out and about and get hungry and need a quick salt & grease fix. Someone has to do those jobs......so I agree society should stop stigmatizing people with those jobs so people less cut out for college don't feel as pressured to go there to avoid a simple job.

No. However, under capitalism the free market determines who does what job.

Well no wonder people like capitalism its like a god to them.....please the capitalism god and maybe you'll be able to live out your dreams? You cannot leave a non-concrete invisable force the responsibility of determining who should be able to live out their dreams and who shouldn't. What is the point in having a system if the attitude is to be.........everyone for themself depending on what the free market gods deem appropriate for each individual.

I'm a bit tired this evening so I'm not getting into a lengthy argument but when the free market is allowed to work it will give the highest happiness to the most number of people.

You can't please everyone so you can only do as much as you can. Socialism doesn't work because it ends up being abused in general and leads to cronyism and encourages idleness. I'm not an extreme libertarian or anything of that nature - I believe that government should provide a safety net but that light regulation that ensures that everyone gets a fair go and prevents corporatism (which is what many socialists use as a straw-man to attack capitalism) whilst ensuring that those who are incapable of following their dreams are looked after.

It seems to me that you are being a bit disingenuous when you suggest that socialism leads to abuse and cronyism when an unrestrained free market has achieved precisely the same results in the USA and the UK during the last decade.

I am a red-blooded, market loving capitalist. But I do not pretend for one moment that capitalism is any less susceptible to abuse than any other economic system.

In my view, the failure of planned economies lies not in the fact that they were planned economies, but rather that there was no barrier between economic decision making and regulation. Markets work because market the decisions to regulate the market are made by an body external to the market. When the market starts to undermine government, then that is the route to cronyism and abuse.

It's how you define 'happiness', though. While a Capitalist society may offer the highest standard of living (if we define that by size of the house, cars, type of job, etc...), it also offers the lowest standard of living (ie not knowing where your next meal is coming from). Right now, I'm not doing so terribly economically, but am I happy? If you can put up with the neural dissonance that comes from choosing such a society, where a select number of individuals are guaranteed to be in poverty, a select number of individuals are guaranteed to be middle class, and a select number of individuals are guaranteed to be rich--then this is where the conversation ends, we possess vastly different values.

But I feel that's just wrong. I know poor, I know what it's like to go on for months without medical insurance, I know what it's like to wear the same clothes for weeks, I've been with the people in the gutter. And you know what? I refuse to accept a society that allows a politician to do something like put our war vets, many of whom have accrued mental dysfunction for serving in foreign conflicts , on THE STREET (thanks Reagan!). Why are they on the street? Oh yeah, their clinical needs are stretching the 'budget' too far. And by budget, they meant several lobbyists won't be filling our politicians coffers if they ain't "good 'ol boys who do what they're told". Though seemingly vague, this paradigm is the nature of the beast.

And back to standard of living--everything you do that's not directly related to putting food in your mouth, a roof over your head, and protection of your family is a struggle to cure your boredom. General life is so abstracted from our survival, in order to feel fulfilled we need to participate in hobbies, go on trips, drive cars, play video games, go shopping, CONSUME CONSUME. We do all these things that require 'money', 'stuff' and ultimately it comes at the cost of natural resources and the environment's health--for the sake of BOREDOM. There is only a fixed number of natural resources, there is only so much 'stuff' to go around. When you see a gentleman driving a $100000 Mercedes in a $5000 suit, you bet your a$$ there's another individual equally as poor as he is rich and comfortable. Not because there can be someone relationally just as poor, not because there happens to be, but because SOMEONE has to make up for that individual being (in my opinion) disgustingly and inexcusably greedy as well as ignorant.

I assert that championing Capitalism or the Free Market is ethically, morally wrong.

tell that to salvador allende. doubleplusgood!

tell that to salvador allende as well!

why aren't you talking about chile, indonesia, argentina, all of the other countries that have gone through bloody struggles in the name of having american funded dictators prop up capitalist "democracies"?

> I know what it's like to wear the same clothes for weeks

I suspect quite a few of us on this site do, though not necessarily for the reasons you're citing

And neither would I. That's sh***y behaviour, no matter which politician commissions it. If someone is prepared to fight (and possibly die) for his country, they should be looked after when they return so far as any needs that were a result of their experiences in the Army go. The way former army personnel are treated in the UK is often disgraceful.

That's what you get when you fight for a capitalist country.