Why don't the faithful hold God morally accountable?

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14 Apr 2012, 11:36 pm

Ragtime wrote:
Personally, I've always wondered why there is so much anger against God from non-believers in Him, yet they have absolutely zero problem with Satan. Satan and his angels, whether you believe in him/them or not, are the primary influences toward pain and suffering in this world. So, non-believers in him not even having a theoretical problem with Satan always strikes me as interesting, particularly when I hear so much vitriol uttered against God by the same people. I could pick from so many examples, but Richard Dawkins comes first to my mind: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” It is exceedingly rare -- if not without parallel -- for a fictional character to inspire such a level of feeling.
I've never heard Satan even described as, say, "bad" by a non-believer. It's just really interesting to me. The author of the Holocaust and all other pain, suffering, and death, not considered even "bad". But God, the creator of us all, and the giver of life (air, food, water, etc, etc, etc, etc) to us all, who expects simple obedience and respect, He's called vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent.

I'm not confused by this at all, but on the surface it is quite odd. And it is an incorrect reaction by them, to be sure, even though it's understandable.




Christianity is inherently dualistic. Yes they believe in an all powerful, all knowing, loving God. Yet in christian theology God clearly has a rival and an equal adversary whom they call Satan. Zoroastrianism is very much the same way. An antediluvian supergod split into 2 equal and opposite beings: Ahura Mazda the good god, and Ahriman the evil god. Satan, for some reason, is associated in american christian mythology with rebellion against authority.



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15 Apr 2012, 2:10 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Personally, I've always wondered why there is so much anger against God from non-believers in Him, yet they have absolutely zero problem with Satan. Satan and his angels, whether you believe in him/them or not, are the primary influences toward pain and suffering in this world. So, non-believers in him not even having a theoretical problem with Satan always strikes me as interesting, particularly when I hear so much vitriol uttered against God by the same people. I could pick from so many examples, but Richard Dawkins comes first to my mind: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” It is exceedingly rare -- if not without parallel -- for a fictional character to inspire such a level of feeling.
I've never heard Satan even described as, say, "bad" by a non-believer. It's just really interesting to me. The author of the Holocaust and all other pain, suffering, and death, not considered even "bad". But God, the creator of us all, and the giver of life (air, food, water, etc, etc, etc, etc) to us all, who expects simple obedience and respect, He's called vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent.

I'm not confused by this at all, but on the surface it is quite odd. And it is an incorrect reaction by them, to be sure, even though it's understandable.




Christianity is inherently dualistic. Yes they believe in an all powerful, all knowing, loving God. Yet in christian theology God clearly has a rival and an equal adversary whom they call Satan. Zoroastrianism is very much the same way. An antediluvian supergod split into 2 equal and opposite beings: Ahura Mazda the good god, and Ahriman the evil god. Satan, for some reason, is associated in american christian mythology with rebellion against authority.


Not equal. Satan is just being given enough rope to hang himself as it were,



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15 Apr 2012, 11:45 pm

shrox wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Personally, I've always wondered why there is so much anger against God from non-believers in Him, yet they have absolutely zero problem with Satan. Satan and his angels, whether you believe in him/them or not, are the primary influences toward pain and suffering in this world. So, non-believers in him not even having a theoretical problem with Satan always strikes me as interesting, particularly when I hear so much vitriol uttered against God by the same people. I could pick from so many examples, but Richard Dawkins comes first to my mind: “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” It is exceedingly rare -- if not without parallel -- for a fictional character to inspire such a level of feeling.
I've never heard Satan even described as, say, "bad" by a non-believer. It's just really interesting to me. The author of the Holocaust and all other pain, suffering, and death, not considered even "bad". But God, the creator of us all, and the giver of life (air, food, water, etc, etc, etc, etc) to us all, who expects simple obedience and respect, He's called vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent.

I'm not confused by this at all, but on the surface it is quite odd. And it is an incorrect reaction by them, to be sure, even though it's understandable.




Christianity is inherently dualistic. Yes they believe in an all powerful, all knowing, loving God. Yet in christian theology God clearly has a rival and an equal adversary whom they call Satan. Zoroastrianism is very much the same way. An antediluvian supergod split into 2 equal and opposite beings: Ahura Mazda the good god, and Ahriman the evil god. Satan, for some reason, is associated in american christian mythology with rebellion against authority.


Not equal. Satan is just being given enough rope to hang himself as it were,


But why, theologically speaking, is he being permitted to crap all over Earth while he does so? I mean, surely an omnipotent deity can lock a freakin' door to the Pit, yes?

Addressing your earlier point about God permitting Man to kill him, I will say again: I find that viewpoint to be refreshing and interesting, but I still have to wonder: does God's status as an eternal being factor into that at all, theologically speaking? If He can never truly die, how much does one death mean to Him? And how much does it really mean when it comes to paying back His sins against others? Admittedly, letting gentiles into the Kingdom was also a pretty massive change in His foreign policy, but for a being that will last eternally no matter how many times He 'dies', I have trouble accepting a single death as sufficient atonement - or even appropriate atonement, really. Why not, I dunno, give those He condemned in the past a second chance? Destroy/lock up Satan? Undo His curse of death? The possibilities are literally mind-boggling when you consider the scale upon which this being is supposed to exist - and yet he chose to die, rather than apply some of His infinite wisdom and might to solving any of the fundamental problems (poverty, ignorance, oppression, lack of resources) that caused and continue to cause sin.


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16 Apr 2012, 2:19 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
shrox wrote:

Not equal. Satan is just being given enough rope to hang himself as it were,


But why, theologically speaking, is he being permitted to crap all over Earth while he does so? I mean, surely an omnipotent deity can lock a freakin' door to the Pit, yes?

Addressing your earlier point about God permitting Man to kill him, I will say again: I find that viewpoint to be refreshing and interesting, but I still have to wonder: does God's status as an eternal being factor into that at all, theologically speaking? If He can never truly die, how much does one death mean to Him? And how much does it really mean when it comes to paying back His sins against others? Admittedly, letting gentiles into the Kingdom was also a pretty massive change in His foreign policy, but for a being that will last eternally no matter how many times He 'dies', I have trouble accepting a single death as sufficient atonement - or even appropriate atonement, really. Why not, I dunno, give those He condemned in the past a second chance? Destroy/lock up Satan? Undo His curse of death? The possibilities are literally mind-boggling when you consider the scale upon which this being is supposed to exist - and yet he chose to die, rather than apply some of His infinite wisdom and might to solving any of the fundamental problems (poverty, ignorance, oppression, lack of resources) that caused and continue to cause sin.


I appreciate that you can see something more here. I am going to think about this, and other queries you've asked. I'll try to explain my understanding in a way that's an interesting read..



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18 Apr 2012, 10:02 am

shrox wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
shrox wrote:

Not equal. Satan is just being given enough rope to hang himself as it were,


But why, theologically speaking, is he being permitted to crap all over Earth while he does so? I mean, surely an omnipotent deity can lock a freakin' door to the Pit, yes?

Addressing your earlier point about God permitting Man to kill him, I will say again: I find that viewpoint to be refreshing and interesting, but I still have to wonder: does God's status as an eternal being factor into that at all, theologically speaking? If He can never truly die, how much does one death mean to Him? And how much does it really mean when it comes to paying back His sins against others? Admittedly, letting gentiles into the Kingdom was also a pretty massive change in His foreign policy, but for a being that will last eternally no matter how many times He 'dies', I have trouble accepting a single death as sufficient atonement - or even appropriate atonement, really. Why not, I dunno, give those He condemned in the past a second chance? Destroy/lock up Satan? Undo His curse of death? The possibilities are literally mind-boggling when you consider the scale upon which this being is supposed to exist - and yet he chose to die, rather than apply some of His infinite wisdom and might to solving any of the fundamental problems (poverty, ignorance, oppression, lack of resources) that caused and continue to cause sin.


I appreciate that you can see something more here. I am going to think about this, and other queries you've asked. I'll try to explain my understanding in a way that's an interesting read..


Hey, like I said: it is/was refreshing and new. This thread is part of my ongoing effort to comprehend the faithful, and as this is one of the big questions that's stalked me through my life regarding them, I figured I should probably just go out and ask it.

To elaborate further on what I said earlier: I'm not entirely sure that dying was really all that appropriate an atonement, even if it did 'stick', as it were. As an example, I'd like to bring up a scene from David Eddings' Belgariad (yes, I'm referencing a fantasy novel): when one of Garion's friends, a born nobleman, finally understood the suffering the serfs of his land went through his first reaction was to vow to throw down his title and live among them. Garion wisely pointed out that such measures would only result in his friend suffering without actually fixing the problem - it would, in effect, alleviate his personal feelings of guilt without actually helping anyone or truly atoning for any crimes. In many senses, that's how I'm seeing Christ dying for God's transgressions against his own creation: like living amongst serfs, it would've been wonderful for making Him personally feel better without really addressing the problems.


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21 Apr 2012, 2:21 am

Ragtime wrote:
Well, the reason put as simply as possible is that He's God. He is above morality. No created being is above morality, but the uncreated Creator is. Created beings are, as created beings, "under" certain requirements by their creator. But who puts the eternal, unmade God under anything? Seriously! It makes perfect sense to me that He is accountable to no one. Note the silliness of the following statement: "C'mon, God, if we have to follow the rules, so do you." A person that would utter that sentence needs his or her head examined if they think the sentence makes real sense.


Yeah, someone needs to have their head examined alright... Do you hear what you're saying? "Uncreated Creator." Really?



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28 Apr 2012, 8:14 pm

American wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
Well, the reason put as simply as possible is that He's God. He is above morality. No created being is above morality, but the uncreated Creator is. Created beings are, as created beings, "under" certain requirements by their creator. But who puts the eternal, unmade God under anything? Seriously! It makes perfect sense to me that He is accountable to no one. Note the silliness of the following statement: "C'mon, God, if we have to follow the rules, so do you." A person that would utter that sentence needs his or her head examined if they think the sentence makes real sense.


Yeah, someone needs to have their head examined alright... Do you hear what you're saying? "Uncreated Creator." Really?


That is awful... why should he not have to follow what is right just because he is powerful? It shouldn't matter if he "created" something, you are still awful to do just ANYTHING you want to them without caring. It's why parents can't do just ANYTHING to their child just because it wouldn't have existed if they hadn't had a fluid exchange... Absolutely awful that a person can think a god can do anything they want, or just be a total psychopath just because they're the one that crafted the world. They wouldn't be saying that if that god was doing just anything to them. They wouldn't say "oh, that's alright, because you made this". Nobody should have to put him under anything. Someone like this is just like their own god! But anyway, yeah, they look at what was done to others and just shrug unfeeling and without judgment on this being, but I'm sure they'd think different if the same crap was done to them. If I was a creator I wouldn't do awful things to my people. Because I know what I shouldn't do and hold myself by own standards (duh). And someone who thinks morals are just what the creator requires instead of something that makes sense on its *own*... disgusting!



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29 Apr 2012, 1:21 am

More important is the title that the faithful grant to him - the LORD, a title that suggests leadership. A Lord is above his servants, yes, but is still beholden to them; there is an expectation of respect, fair treatment, and that a subject's loyalty will be treated with loyalty in return. Additionally, a leader is supposed to set an example for his followers (the saying goes that integrity and discipline start at the top).

As far as being 'above' morality, there is no 'above'. There are participants and non-participants, and by espousing a moral code and enforcing it, God puts himself in the first category. Screw the Rules, I Make Them is a very, very bad way to lead and would be considered despotic in any human ruler, and there's no reason He should be any different in this case, especially since unlike many fantastic beings through mythology (angels, faeries) He appears to understand the concept of morality rather than being separate from it by dint of alien psychology.

Essentially, if you can preach it, you are bound by it. His behavior cannot be excused by the fact that He created the universe; after all, it didn't ask to be made, and neither did we. Treating us with casual abuse cannot be justified in such a fashion.


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29 Apr 2012, 2:10 am

I knew I'd been forgetting something.

MarketAndChurch wrote:
1.) eternal punishments for finite transgressions,


Depending on how you interpret various passages, the unfaithful or insufficiently faithful either face an eternity in Hell or the oblivion of death as punishment for lives lived in sin. Thing is, even a life lived in an astonishing amount of sin (Gacy, Hitler) has a finite span, and the ripples from their atrocities inevitably stop moving after awhile. Even if it takes a very long time for one's transgressions against others to stop having an effect, it still doesn't match up to eternity. There is no human action that can possibly exist on such a scale, making any eternal punishment inherently unjust. The punishment must exist in proportion to the crime.

Quote:
2.) slaughter in response to relatively small provocation,


This story, it is the best story. It is my favorite story in the entire Bible for sheer comedy value. Allow me to quote:

Quote:
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number. 25 And he went from there to Mount Carmel, and from there he returned to Samaria.


So, kids make fun of him for being bald. He calls on God to smite them and bears kill them all. Yeeeep. Tooootal justice right there.

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3.) commanding his followers to murder gentiles in order to steal and/or rape their women),


So, evidently there was no strict command, but I do note that there was also no reprisal or statement from His end on this sordid little affair:

Quote:
7 "How can we provide wives for those who are left, since we have taken an oath by the LORD not to give them any of our daughters in marriage?" 8 Then they asked, "Which one of the tribes of Israel failed to assemble before the LORD at Mizpah?" They discovered that no one from Jabesh Gilead had come to the camp for the assembly. 9 For when they counted the people, they found that none of the people of Jabesh Gilead were there. 10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children. 11 "This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin." 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan. 13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon. 14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them. 15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a gap in the tribes of Israel. 16 And the elders of the assembly said, "With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left? 17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs," they said, "so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out. 18 We can't give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: 'Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.' 19 But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah." 20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, "Go and hide in the vineyards 21 and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin. 22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, 'Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war, and you are innocent, since you did not give your daughters to them.' " 23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the girls were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.


Quote:
4.) unmerciful (creation of suffering in response to original sin, death/hell in general) or just straight up immoral


Should women be required to marry their rapists? Old Testament laws say yes. Do those that have never even heard of the Abhramic religions deserve to be condemned to Hell? Both testaments say yes. Stoning a woman to death because she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night? His punishment to Eve for her transgressions? Cursing Caine to suffer in the world eternally for the death of Abel (see my previous points regarding eternal punishments and finite crimes)? The burning of Sodom and Gamorrah? The hardening of the Pharoh's heart during Exodus? Need I continue?


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29 Apr 2012, 1:09 pm

I do find t interesting that the non theists want theists to hold God morally accountable that the non thiests have no belief in :lol:
The reason we don't is because he is God it's that simple.



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29 Apr 2012, 1:42 pm

Joker wrote:
I do find t interesting that the non theists want theists to hold God morally accountable that the non thiests have no belief in :lol:
The reason we don't is because he is God it's that simple.


More than a thousand years poured into the refinement of theological thought have clearly been wasted. The great Christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation must be turning in their graves.

Like I said before, I'm here (in this thread) trying to understand how the faithful think. It's a fair question. I'm just kinda depressed that most folks answer, "Well, because he's God," since that response indicates a complete and total failure to think whatsoever.


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29 Apr 2012, 2:03 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
Joker wrote:
I do find t interesting that the non theists want theists to hold God morally accountable that the non thiests have no belief in :lol:
The reason we don't is because he is God it's that simple.


More than a thousand years poured into the refinement of theological thought have clearly been wasted. The great Christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation must be turning in their graves.

Like I said before, I'm here (in this thread) trying to understand how the faithful think. It's a fair question. I'm just kinda depressed that most folks answer, "Well, because he's God," since that response indicates a complete and total failure to think whatsoever.


I can put it this way the faithful views God as loving and vengful he does things that not even those who whorship him will understand.
I can understand why the non religious would be curious and the theists are just as curisous as to why they don't believe in God.
To me God is absolute authority I follow his laws because I both love and fear him.

And your right about the great christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Refomration would be turning in their graves because their was much more understanding and at that time the religious kept their faith to themselfs as a community.



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29 Apr 2012, 2:03 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:

More than a thousand years poured into the refinement of theological thought have clearly been wasted. The great Christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation must be turning in their graves...


I wonder if that spinning could be harnessed as a potential energy source.



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29 Apr 2012, 2:10 pm

shrox wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:

More than a thousand years poured into the refinement of theological thought have clearly been wasted. The great Christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation must be turning in their graves...


I wonder if that spinning could be harnessed as a potential energy source.


I love you for that reference. Take me in a manly fashion.

(Not trying to rush your thought processes or anything, just wondering if you'd thought more about my earlier points that you'd said you were considering.)


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29 Apr 2012, 2:13 pm

Joker wrote:
e's God," since that response indicates a complete and total failure to think whatsoever.


I can put it this way the faithful views God as loving and vengful he does things that not even those who whorship him will understand.
I can understand why the non religious would be curious and the theists are just as curisous as to why they don't believe in God.
To me God is absolute authority I follow his laws because I both love and fear him.

And your right about the great christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Refomration would be turning in their graves because their was much more understanding and at that time the religious kept their faith to themselfs as a community.[/quote]

Which is exactly why we're curious. You make it sound like if the bible said "on the third day of your 84'th year of life, you must rip out your heart with a rusty metal spoon" you would do so, with no second thoughts about it. You aren't any better than a suicide cultist, but you try and say god is loving... despite how you "fear" him for his frequent homicidal rages.


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29 Apr 2012, 2:18 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
e's God," since that response indicates a complete and total failure to think whatsoever.


I can put it this way the faithful views God as loving and vengful he does things that not even those who whorship him will understand.
I can understand why the non religious would be curious and the theists are just as curisous as to why they don't believe in God.
To me God is absolute authority I follow his laws because I both love and fear him.

And your right about the great christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Refomration would be turning in their graves because their was much more understanding and at that time the religious kept their faith to themselfs as a community.


Which is exactly why we're curious. You make it sound like if the bible said "on the third day of your 84'th year of life, you must rip out your heart with a rusty metal spoon" you would do so, with no second thoughts about it. You aren't any better than a suicide cultist, but you try and say god is loving... despite how you "fear" him for his frequent homicidal rages.[/quote]

Since no passage in the bible says to do that your arguement has no value hence makes no since :wink: