Why don't the faithful hold God morally accountable?
I've never heard Satan even described as, say, "bad" by a non-believer. It's just really interesting to me. The author of the Holocaust and all other pain, suffering, and death, not considered even "bad". But God, the creator of us all, and the giver of life (air, food, water, etc, etc, etc, etc) to us all, who expects simple obedience and respect, He's called vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent.
I'm not confused by this at all, but on the surface it is quite odd. And it is an incorrect reaction by them, to be sure, even though it's understandable.
Christianity is inherently dualistic. Yes they believe in an all powerful, all knowing, loving God. Yet in christian theology God clearly has a rival and an equal adversary whom they call Satan. Zoroastrianism is very much the same way. An antediluvian supergod split into 2 equal and opposite beings: Ahura Mazda the good god, and Ahriman the evil god. Satan, for some reason, is associated in american christian mythology with rebellion against authority.
I've never heard Satan even described as, say, "bad" by a non-believer. It's just really interesting to me. The author of the Holocaust and all other pain, suffering, and death, not considered even "bad". But God, the creator of us all, and the giver of life (air, food, water, etc, etc, etc, etc) to us all, who expects simple obedience and respect, He's called vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent.
I'm not confused by this at all, but on the surface it is quite odd. And it is an incorrect reaction by them, to be sure, even though it's understandable.
Christianity is inherently dualistic. Yes they believe in an all powerful, all knowing, loving God. Yet in christian theology God clearly has a rival and an equal adversary whom they call Satan. Zoroastrianism is very much the same way. An antediluvian supergod split into 2 equal and opposite beings: Ahura Mazda the good god, and Ahriman the evil god. Satan, for some reason, is associated in american christian mythology with rebellion against authority.
Not equal. Satan is just being given enough rope to hang himself as it were,
I've never heard Satan even described as, say, "bad" by a non-believer. It's just really interesting to me. The author of the Holocaust and all other pain, suffering, and death, not considered even "bad". But God, the creator of us all, and the giver of life (air, food, water, etc, etc, etc, etc) to us all, who expects simple obedience and respect, He's called vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, and capriciously malevolent.
I'm not confused by this at all, but on the surface it is quite odd. And it is an incorrect reaction by them, to be sure, even though it's understandable.
Christianity is inherently dualistic. Yes they believe in an all powerful, all knowing, loving God. Yet in christian theology God clearly has a rival and an equal adversary whom they call Satan. Zoroastrianism is very much the same way. An antediluvian supergod split into 2 equal and opposite beings: Ahura Mazda the good god, and Ahriman the evil god. Satan, for some reason, is associated in american christian mythology with rebellion against authority.
Not equal. Satan is just being given enough rope to hang himself as it were,
But why, theologically speaking, is he being permitted to crap all over Earth while he does so? I mean, surely an omnipotent deity can lock a freakin' door to the Pit, yes?
Addressing your earlier point about God permitting Man to kill him, I will say again: I find that viewpoint to be refreshing and interesting, but I still have to wonder: does God's status as an eternal being factor into that at all, theologically speaking? If He can never truly die, how much does one death mean to Him? And how much does it really mean when it comes to paying back His sins against others? Admittedly, letting gentiles into the Kingdom was also a pretty massive change in His foreign policy, but for a being that will last eternally no matter how many times He 'dies', I have trouble accepting a single death as sufficient atonement - or even appropriate atonement, really. Why not, I dunno, give those He condemned in the past a second chance? Destroy/lock up Satan? Undo His curse of death? The possibilities are literally mind-boggling when you consider the scale upon which this being is supposed to exist - and yet he chose to die, rather than apply some of His infinite wisdom and might to solving any of the fundamental problems (poverty, ignorance, oppression, lack of resources) that caused and continue to cause sin.
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Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I."
Not equal. Satan is just being given enough rope to hang himself as it were,
But why, theologically speaking, is he being permitted to crap all over Earth while he does so? I mean, surely an omnipotent deity can lock a freakin' door to the Pit, yes?
Addressing your earlier point about God permitting Man to kill him, I will say again: I find that viewpoint to be refreshing and interesting, but I still have to wonder: does God's status as an eternal being factor into that at all, theologically speaking? If He can never truly die, how much does one death mean to Him? And how much does it really mean when it comes to paying back His sins against others? Admittedly, letting gentiles into the Kingdom was also a pretty massive change in His foreign policy, but for a being that will last eternally no matter how many times He 'dies', I have trouble accepting a single death as sufficient atonement - or even appropriate atonement, really. Why not, I dunno, give those He condemned in the past a second chance? Destroy/lock up Satan? Undo His curse of death? The possibilities are literally mind-boggling when you consider the scale upon which this being is supposed to exist - and yet he chose to die, rather than apply some of His infinite wisdom and might to solving any of the fundamental problems (poverty, ignorance, oppression, lack of resources) that caused and continue to cause sin.
I appreciate that you can see something more here. I am going to think about this, and other queries you've asked. I'll try to explain my understanding in a way that's an interesting read..
Not equal. Satan is just being given enough rope to hang himself as it were,
But why, theologically speaking, is he being permitted to crap all over Earth while he does so? I mean, surely an omnipotent deity can lock a freakin' door to the Pit, yes?
Addressing your earlier point about God permitting Man to kill him, I will say again: I find that viewpoint to be refreshing and interesting, but I still have to wonder: does God's status as an eternal being factor into that at all, theologically speaking? If He can never truly die, how much does one death mean to Him? And how much does it really mean when it comes to paying back His sins against others? Admittedly, letting gentiles into the Kingdom was also a pretty massive change in His foreign policy, but for a being that will last eternally no matter how many times He 'dies', I have trouble accepting a single death as sufficient atonement - or even appropriate atonement, really. Why not, I dunno, give those He condemned in the past a second chance? Destroy/lock up Satan? Undo His curse of death? The possibilities are literally mind-boggling when you consider the scale upon which this being is supposed to exist - and yet he chose to die, rather than apply some of His infinite wisdom and might to solving any of the fundamental problems (poverty, ignorance, oppression, lack of resources) that caused and continue to cause sin.
I appreciate that you can see something more here. I am going to think about this, and other queries you've asked. I'll try to explain my understanding in a way that's an interesting read..
Hey, like I said: it is/was refreshing and new. This thread is part of my ongoing effort to comprehend the faithful, and as this is one of the big questions that's stalked me through my life regarding them, I figured I should probably just go out and ask it.
To elaborate further on what I said earlier: I'm not entirely sure that dying was really all that appropriate an atonement, even if it did 'stick', as it were. As an example, I'd like to bring up a scene from David Eddings' Belgariad (yes, I'm referencing a fantasy novel): when one of Garion's friends, a born nobleman, finally understood the suffering the serfs of his land went through his first reaction was to vow to throw down his title and live among them. Garion wisely pointed out that such measures would only result in his friend suffering without actually fixing the problem - it would, in effect, alleviate his personal feelings of guilt without actually helping anyone or truly atoning for any crimes. In many senses, that's how I'm seeing Christ dying for God's transgressions against his own creation: like living amongst serfs, it would've been wonderful for making Him personally feel better without really addressing the problems.
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Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I."
Yeah, someone needs to have their head examined alright... Do you hear what you're saying? "Uncreated Creator." Really?
Yeah, someone needs to have their head examined alright... Do you hear what you're saying? "Uncreated Creator." Really?
That is awful... why should he not have to follow what is right just because he is powerful? It shouldn't matter if he "created" something, you are still awful to do just ANYTHING you want to them without caring. It's why parents can't do just ANYTHING to their child just because it wouldn't have existed if they hadn't had a fluid exchange... Absolutely awful that a person can think a god can do anything they want, or just be a total psychopath just because they're the one that crafted the world. They wouldn't be saying that if that god was doing just anything to them. They wouldn't say "oh, that's alright, because you made this". Nobody should have to put him under anything. Someone like this is just like their own god! But anyway, yeah, they look at what was done to others and just shrug unfeeling and without judgment on this being, but I'm sure they'd think different if the same crap was done to them. If I was a creator I wouldn't do awful things to my people. Because I know what I shouldn't do and hold myself by own standards (duh). And someone who thinks morals are just what the creator requires instead of something that makes sense on its *own*... disgusting!
More important is the title that the faithful grant to him - the LORD, a title that suggests leadership. A Lord is above his servants, yes, but is still beholden to them; there is an expectation of respect, fair treatment, and that a subject's loyalty will be treated with loyalty in return. Additionally, a leader is supposed to set an example for his followers (the saying goes that integrity and discipline start at the top).
As far as being 'above' morality, there is no 'above'. There are participants and non-participants, and by espousing a moral code and enforcing it, God puts himself in the first category. Screw the Rules, I Make Them is a very, very bad way to lead and would be considered despotic in any human ruler, and there's no reason He should be any different in this case, especially since unlike many fantastic beings through mythology (angels, faeries) He appears to understand the concept of morality rather than being separate from it by dint of alien psychology.
Essentially, if you can preach it, you are bound by it. His behavior cannot be excused by the fact that He created the universe; after all, it didn't ask to be made, and neither did we. Treating us with casual abuse cannot be justified in such a fashion.
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Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I."
I knew I'd been forgetting something.
Depending on how you interpret various passages, the unfaithful or insufficiently faithful either face an eternity in Hell or the oblivion of death as punishment for lives lived in sin. Thing is, even a life lived in an astonishing amount of sin (Gacy, Hitler) has a finite span, and the ripples from their atrocities inevitably stop moving after awhile. Even if it takes a very long time for one's transgressions against others to stop having an effect, it still doesn't match up to eternity. There is no human action that can possibly exist on such a scale, making any eternal punishment inherently unjust. The punishment must exist in proportion to the crime.
This story, it is the best story. It is my favorite story in the entire Bible for sheer comedy value. Allow me to quote:
So, kids make fun of him for being bald. He calls on God to smite them and bears kill them all. Yeeeep. Tooootal justice right there.
So, evidently there was no strict command, but I do note that there was also no reprisal or statement from His end on this sordid little affair:
Should women be required to marry their rapists? Old Testament laws say yes. Do those that have never even heard of the Abhramic religions deserve to be condemned to Hell? Both testaments say yes. Stoning a woman to death because she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night? His punishment to Eve for her transgressions? Cursing Caine to suffer in the world eternally for the death of Abel (see my previous points regarding eternal punishments and finite crimes)? The burning of Sodom and Gamorrah? The hardening of the Pharoh's heart during Exodus? Need I continue?
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Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I."
Joker
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The reason we don't is because he is God it's that simple.
More than a thousand years poured into the refinement of theological thought have clearly been wasted. The great Christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation must be turning in their graves.
Like I said before, I'm here (in this thread) trying to understand how the faithful think. It's a fair question. I'm just kinda depressed that most folks answer, "Well, because he's God," since that response indicates a complete and total failure to think whatsoever.
_________________
Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I."
Joker
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 37
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The reason we don't is because he is God it's that simple.
More than a thousand years poured into the refinement of theological thought have clearly been wasted. The great Christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation must be turning in their graves.
Like I said before, I'm here (in this thread) trying to understand how the faithful think. It's a fair question. I'm just kinda depressed that most folks answer, "Well, because he's God," since that response indicates a complete and total failure to think whatsoever.
I can put it this way the faithful views God as loving and vengful he does things that not even those who whorship him will understand.
I can understand why the non religious would be curious and the theists are just as curisous as to why they don't believe in God.
To me God is absolute authority I follow his laws because I both love and fear him.
And your right about the great christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Refomration would be turning in their graves because their was much more understanding and at that time the religious kept their faith to themselfs as a community.
More than a thousand years poured into the refinement of theological thought have clearly been wasted. The great Christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation must be turning in their graves...
I wonder if that spinning could be harnessed as a potential energy source.
More than a thousand years poured into the refinement of theological thought have clearly been wasted. The great Christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Reformation must be turning in their graves...
I wonder if that spinning could be harnessed as a potential energy source.
I love you for that reference. Take me in a manly fashion.
(Not trying to rush your thought processes or anything, just wondering if you'd thought more about my earlier points that you'd said you were considering.)
_________________
Et in Arcadia ego. - "Even in Arcadia, there am I."
I can put it this way the faithful views God as loving and vengful he does things that not even those who whorship him will understand.
I can understand why the non religious would be curious and the theists are just as curisous as to why they don't believe in God.
To me God is absolute authority I follow his laws because I both love and fear him.
And your right about the great christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Refomration would be turning in their graves because their was much more understanding and at that time the religious kept their faith to themselfs as a community.[/quote]
Which is exactly why we're curious. You make it sound like if the bible said "on the third day of your 84'th year of life, you must rip out your heart with a rusty metal spoon" you would do so, with no second thoughts about it. You aren't any better than a suicide cultist, but you try and say god is loving... despite how you "fear" him for his frequent homicidal rages.
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A shot gun blast into the face of deceit
You'll gain your just reward.
We'll not rest until the purge is complete
You will reap what you've sown.
Joker
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Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 37
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Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
I can put it this way the faithful views God as loving and vengful he does things that not even those who whorship him will understand.
I can understand why the non religious would be curious and the theists are just as curisous as to why they don't believe in God.
To me God is absolute authority I follow his laws because I both love and fear him.
And your right about the great christian thinkers of the Catholic Church and the Protestant Refomration would be turning in their graves because their was much more understanding and at that time the religious kept their faith to themselfs as a community.
Which is exactly why we're curious. You make it sound like if the bible said "on the third day of your 84'th year of life, you must rip out your heart with a rusty metal spoon" you would do so, with no second thoughts about it. You aren't any better than a suicide cultist, but you try and say god is loving... despite how you "fear" him for his frequent homicidal rages.[/quote]
Since no passage in the bible says to do that your arguement has no value hence makes no since
