15 Aug 2012, 3:13 pm
JakobVirgil wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
LKL: What gene frequencies specifically does that map you posted refer to?
Also, WHY is it "racist" to suggest that melanesians may be descended from black africans who left africa 60,000 years ago?
And JakobVirgin: If melanesians are indeed unrelated to black africans, then why do they have such similar facial features? Especially the Papuans, Andamanese, and Soloman islanders?
If you say that it's due to "convergent evolution do to a similar climate as equatorial africa, you're wrong.
Also, WHY is it "racist" to suggest that melanesians may be descended from black africans who left africa 60,000 years ago?
And JakobVirgin: If melanesians are indeed unrelated to black africans, then why do they have such similar facial features? Especially the Papuans, Andamanese, and Soloman islanders?
If you say that it's due to "convergent evolution do to a similar climate as equatorial africa, you're wrong.
I say they don't look alike so am I off the hook?
The Pacific Islands don't have a similar climate to equatorial Africa.
I would give a cultural solution to your question (hopefully I can avoid stepping into your "clever" trap). You think they look the same because you are part of a culture that needs them to look the same. So you value skin color but not Supraorbital ridges. Out dated head measurements and such -that have more to do with the mothers diet than genetics- than hair color.
Since Caucasoids and (at the risk of being called a b***h again) Austroloids have the biggest brow ridges and the skull anatomy to maintain them this coupled with the blond hair makes me think they look "White". Actually like Irish people who somehow obtained deep tans.
To me the nose shape of the folks you like to call Melanesians looks very different than that of a congoid African with a more pronounced and wider bridge.
Of course this is all subjective that is why genetic studies are more useful if what one wants is to figure out the settlement patterns of Homo.
First of all, the superorbital brow ridges have a much different and more genetically accurate explanation than the one you offered: The ancestors of caucasians and the ancestors of melanesians interbreed with neanderthals(who have pronounced brow ridges-that's why white people have that feature in case you hadn't learned that in school). You stupidly don't recognize that there is considerable debate among anthropologists about the melanesians and that in fact, they are not descended from caucasians after all. Melanesians are part of the south asian supercluster whereas caucasoids and east asians(with those epicanthic folds) belong to the distinct north asian supercluster. What black africans have in common with melanesians besides skin color are rounded faces, thick lips, nappy hair(in the case of the islanders), and blunt flat noses.
Andamanese children:
(Black)African children of the Dinka tribe:
15 Aug 2012, 3:46 pm
AspieRogue wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
LKL: What gene frequencies specifically does that map you posted refer to?
Also, WHY is it "racist" to suggest that melanesians may be descended from black africans who left africa 60,000 years ago?
And JakobVirgin: If melanesians are indeed unrelated to black africans, then why do they have such similar facial features? Especially the Papuans, Andamanese, and Soloman islanders?
If you say that it's due to "convergent evolution do to a similar climate as equatorial africa, you're wrong.
Also, WHY is it "racist" to suggest that melanesians may be descended from black africans who left africa 60,000 years ago?
And JakobVirgin: If melanesians are indeed unrelated to black africans, then why do they have such similar facial features? Especially the Papuans, Andamanese, and Soloman islanders?
If you say that it's due to "convergent evolution do to a similar climate as equatorial africa, you're wrong.
I say they don't look alike so am I off the hook?
The Pacific Islands don't have a similar climate to equatorial Africa.
I would give a cultural solution to your question (hopefully I can avoid stepping into your "clever" trap). You think they look the same because you are part of a culture that needs them to look the same. So you value skin color but not Supraorbital ridges. Out dated head measurements and such -that have more to do with the mothers diet than genetics- than hair color.
Since Caucasoids and (at the risk of being called a b***h again) Austroloids have the biggest brow ridges and the skull anatomy to maintain them this coupled with the blond hair makes me think they look "White". Actually like Irish people who somehow obtained deep tans.
To me the nose shape of the folks you like to call Melanesians looks very different than that of a congoid African with a more pronounced and wider bridge.
Of course this is all subjective that is why genetic studies are more useful if what one wants is to figure out the settlement patterns of Homo.
First of all, the superorbital brow ridges have a much different and more genetically accurate explanation than the one you offered: The ancestors of caucasians and the ancestors of melanesians interbreed with neanderthals(who have pronounced brow ridges-that's why white people have that feature in case you hadn't learned that in school). You stupidly don't recognize that there is considerable debate among anthropologists about the melanesians and that in fact, they are not descended from caucasians after all. Melanesians are part of the south asian supercluster whereas caucasoids and east asians(with those epicanthic folds) belong to the distinct north asian supercluster. What black africans have in common with melanesians besides skin color are rounded faces, thick lips, nappy hair(in the case of the islanders), and blunt flat noses.
Andamanese children:
(Black)African children of the Dinka tribe:
You are the one arguing for the if they look black they are black scheme not me.
Which anthropologists where? Redicecreations?
I assume you know that the Andaman Islands are off the coast of India that Andamanese people are not Melanesian, don't have eye ridges, and I am pretty sure that picture is of adults.
(Making it a really cool example of neotony.)
But other than that ... touche?
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,194
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
15 Aug 2012, 3:58 pm
JakobVirgil wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
LKL: What gene frequencies specifically does that map you posted refer to?
Also, WHY is it "racist" to suggest that melanesians may be descended from black africans who left africa 60,000 years ago?
And JakobVirgin: If melanesians are indeed unrelated to black africans, then why do they have such similar facial features? Especially the Papuans, Andamanese, and Soloman islanders?
If you say that it's due to "convergent evolution do to a similar climate as equatorial africa, you're wrong.
Also, WHY is it "racist" to suggest that melanesians may be descended from black africans who left africa 60,000 years ago?
And JakobVirgin: If melanesians are indeed unrelated to black africans, then why do they have such similar facial features? Especially the Papuans, Andamanese, and Soloman islanders?
If you say that it's due to "convergent evolution do to a similar climate as equatorial africa, you're wrong.
I say they don't look alike so am I off the hook?
The Pacific Islands don't have a similar climate to equatorial Africa.
I would give a cultural solution to your question (hopefully I can avoid stepping into your "clever" trap). You think they look the same because you are part of a culture that needs them to look the same. So you value skin color but not Supraorbital ridges. Out dated head measurements and such -that have more to do with the mothers diet than genetics- than hair color.
Since Caucasoids and (at the risk of being called a b***h again) Austroloids have the biggest brow ridges and the skull anatomy to maintain them this coupled with the blond hair makes me think they look "White". Actually like Irish people who somehow obtained deep tans.
To me the nose shape of the folks you like to call Melanesians looks very different than that of a congoid African with a more pronounced and wider bridge.
Of course this is all subjective that is why genetic studies are more useful if what one wants is to figure out the settlement patterns of Homo.
First of all, the superorbital brow ridges have a much different and more genetically accurate explanation than the one you offered: The ancestors of caucasians and the ancestors of melanesians interbreed with neanderthals(who have pronounced brow ridges-that's why white people have that feature in case you hadn't learned that in school). You stupidly don't recognize that there is considerable debate among anthropologists about the melanesians and that in fact, they are not descended from caucasians after all. Melanesians are part of the south asian supercluster whereas caucasoids and east asians(with those epicanthic folds) belong to the distinct north asian supercluster. What black africans have in common with melanesians besides skin color are rounded faces, thick lips, nappy hair(in the case of the islanders), and blunt flat noses.
Andamanese children:
(Black)African children of the Dinka tribe:
You are the one arguing for the if they look black they are black scheme not me.
Which anthropologists where? Redicecreations?
I assume you know that the Andaman Islands are off the coast of India that Andamanese people are not Melanesian, don't have eye ridges, and I am pretty sure that picture is of adults.
(Making it a really cool example of neotony.)
But other than that ... touche?
From what I've read, despite the fact that the Andamanese people are outwardly black, their DNA is closer to that of central Asians.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
15 Aug 2012, 4:25 pm
Kraichgauer wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
LKL: What gene frequencies specifically does that map you posted refer to?
Also, WHY is it "racist" to suggest that melanesians may be descended from black africans who left africa 60,000 years ago?
And JakobVirgin: If melanesians are indeed unrelated to black africans, then why do they have such similar facial features? Especially the Papuans, Andamanese, and Soloman islanders?
If you say that it's due to "convergent evolution do to a similar climate as equatorial africa, you're wrong.
Also, WHY is it "racist" to suggest that melanesians may be descended from black africans who left africa 60,000 years ago?
And JakobVirgin: If melanesians are indeed unrelated to black africans, then why do they have such similar facial features? Especially the Papuans, Andamanese, and Soloman islanders?
If you say that it's due to "convergent evolution do to a similar climate as equatorial africa, you're wrong.
I say they don't look alike so am I off the hook?
The Pacific Islands don't have a similar climate to equatorial Africa.
I would give a cultural solution to your question (hopefully I can avoid stepping into your "clever" trap). You think they look the same because you are part of a culture that needs them to look the same. So you value skin color but not Supraorbital ridges. Out dated head measurements and such -that have more to do with the mothers diet than genetics- than hair color.
Since Caucasoids and (at the risk of being called a b***h again) Austroloids have the biggest brow ridges and the skull anatomy to maintain them this coupled with the blond hair makes me think they look "White". Actually like Irish people who somehow obtained deep tans.
To me the nose shape of the folks you like to call Melanesians looks very different than that of a congoid African with a more pronounced and wider bridge.
Of course this is all subjective that is why genetic studies are more useful if what one wants is to figure out the settlement patterns of Homo.
First of all, the superorbital brow ridges have a much different and more genetically accurate explanation than the one you offered: The ancestors of caucasians and the ancestors of melanesians interbreed with neanderthals(who have pronounced brow ridges-that's why white people have that feature in case you hadn't learned that in school). You stupidly don't recognize that there is considerable debate among anthropologists about the melanesians and that in fact, they are not descended from caucasians after all. Melanesians are part of the south asian supercluster whereas caucasoids and east asians(with those epicanthic folds) belong to the distinct north asian supercluster. What black africans have in common with melanesians besides skin color are rounded faces, thick lips, nappy hair(in the case of the islanders), and blunt flat noses.
Andamanese children:
(Black)African children of the Dinka tribe:
You are the one arguing for the if they look black they are black scheme not me.
Which anthropologists where? Redicecreations?
I assume you know that the Andaman Islands are off the coast of India that Andamanese people are not Melanesian, don't have eye ridges, and I am pretty sure that picture is of adults.
(Making it a really cool example of neotony.)
But other than that ... touche?
From what I've read, despite the fact that the Andamanese people are outwardly black, their DNA is closer to that of central Asians.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
They are almost exclusively in Haplogroup M a group that is rare in Africa.
15 Aug 2012, 4:31 pm
15 Aug 2012, 4:46 pm
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,194
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
15 Aug 2012, 4:58 pm
15 Aug 2012, 5:06 pm
Kraichgauer
Veteran
Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 49,194
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.
15 Aug 2012, 5:21 pm
JakobVirgil wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
JakobVirgil wrote:
BrandonSP wrote:
AspieRogue wrote:
And JakobVirgin: If melanesians are indeed unrelated to black africans, then why do they have such similar facial features? Especially the Papuans, Andamanese, and Soloman islanders?
If you say that it's due to "convergent evolution do to a similar climate as equatorial africa, you're wrong.
If you say that it's due to "convergent evolution do to a similar climate as equatorial africa, you're wrong.
Alternatively, those Pacific populations could have retained tropical adaptations (e.g. dark skin) from prehistoric African ancestors, due to staying in the tropics, but the rest of their genome diverged substantially from Africans over the millennia. Keep in mind that since modern humans evolved in Africa, we probably all began with tropical adaptations, and certain human populations (i.e. the ancestors of your Caucasoids and Mongoloids) only lost those adaptations once they migrated out of the tropics and closer to the poles.
I am thinking that the neanderthals were blond as well as the two bones found over-hyped probably actually neanderthal hybrid Denisova hominins. Big Ridges and light colored hair like Tolkien Dwarves but you know about as tall as humans of the time.
To be sure, they had lived in northern Ice Age climates for thousands of years. You would think they had become adapted to their environment with fair complexions and hair. There is a popular theory that Neanderthals may in fact have been red haired - another trait associated with Caucasians in cold climes - though I'm not sure how this conclusion had been come to.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
Really how can we tell they are not just Scotts?
Now that you mention it - - Groundskeeper Willy of The Simpsons might pass as an archaic human.
-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer
15 Aug 2012, 5:35 pm
15 Aug 2012, 5:57 pm
15 Aug 2012, 6:56 pm
15 Aug 2012, 7:12 pm
15 Aug 2012, 7:28 pm
15 Aug 2012, 7:48 pm
15 Aug 2012, 7:51 pm
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