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puddingmouse
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27 Sep 2012, 4:57 pm

LKL wrote:

YippySkippy wrote:

Thank goodness. Finally someone other than Joker to stand up for the Irish. :wink:

And with something a bit more solid than wailing and gnashing of teeth about patriotism.

Tequila is probably just as, if not more Irish than most Irish-Americans are. That's how it is in the North West of England.

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GGPViper
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27 Sep 2012, 5:01 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

I never said it would be pretty (or civilized).

I never would expect it to be either. Normally the Chinese *despite a communist regime* are a peaceful and civilized people but if you pose a threat or if they feel something is a potential threat watch out. Otherwise they are friendly people unfortunately most of the West don't see them as friendly unless they hang out with them long enough they are just looking out for what is best for the people and sometimes if brute force is needed they will use it in order to bring peace back within its nation. I do respect the Chinese even though they have a communist government *more likely becoming socialist due to rapid changes* they are very kind people as long as you do not provoke or threaten them they just want peace.

I see no real disagreement. However, I would not consider China even a socialist regime. IMO, it's more like authoritarianism + (recently) capitalism. But my mileage might vary.

Tequila
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27 Sep 2012, 5:05 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Tequila is probably just as, if not more Irish than most Irish-Americans are. That's how it is in the North West of England.

But most people with Irish ancestry in England (unless they're relatively recent immigrants) don't see themselves as Irish but completely English/British instead. A lot of us have Irish, English, Scottish ancestry anyway.

Especially on my father's side. They were staunch Irish Catholics. One of my neighbours is from Liverpool and has very strong Irish Catholic ancestry. Another one was born in Co. Monaghan.

The history of Irish Catholic immigration is strong in the North West of England.

Last edited by Tequila on 27 Sep 2012, 5:15 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Tequila
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27 Sep 2012, 5:06 pm

GGPViper wrote:

I see no real disagreement. However, I would not consider China even a socialist regime. IMO, it's more like authoritarianism + (recently) capitalism. But my mileage might vary.

Would you not say that it's an authoritarian regime with an extreme amount of bureaucracy and a sort of quasi-capitalism?

Tequila
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27 Sep 2012, 5:15 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:

Also China is primarily an Athiest state.

Not really - the Communist State became the cult of religion.

puddingmouse
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27 Sep 2012, 5:20 pm

Tequila wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

Tequila is probably just as, if not more Irish than most Irish-Americans are. That's how it is in the North West of England.

I'm not even particularly Irish for someone from Manchester (about 1/8 if you take into account the 1/16th on both sides), and I probably have more Irish in me than some Irish Americans.

EDIT: What a lot of Irish Americans don't get as well is that you can be both British and Irish or half English/Irish. It's like they have an Irish version of the 'one drop rule'.

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Last edited by puddingmouse on 27 Sep 2012, 5:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

YippySkippy
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27 Sep 2012, 5:22 pm

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I understand. Hitler didn't like people to know he was part Jewish. :wink:

YippySkippy
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27 Sep 2012, 5:26 pm

Quote:

Tequila is probably just as, if not more Irish than most Irish-Americans are.

Why are we comparing Tequila's genetics with that of Irish-Americans? I don't see how this relates to the discussion.

puddingmouse
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27 Sep 2012, 5:30 pm

YippySkippy wrote:

Quote:

Tequila is probably just as, if not more Irish than most Irish-Americans are.

Why are we comparing Tequila's genetics with that of Irish-Americans? I don't see how this relates to the discussion.

Tbh, saying that 'Finally someone other than Joker to stand up for being Irish' doesn't relate to the discussion, either. As someone who lives geographically much closer to Ireland and grew up in the Irish community in her city, I just feel bemused when Americans have strong opinions on Irish politics, presumably because it makes up a fraction of their 'heritage'.

Sorry if that sounds harsh.

And the discussion of Northern Ireland doesn't relate to a thread about Islam, either. So the thread has already gone off topic.

Otters are cute.

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Last edited by puddingmouse on 27 Sep 2012, 5:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tequila
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27 Sep 2012, 5:30 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

EDIT: What a lot of Irish Americans don't get as well is that you can be both British and Irish or half English/Irish. It's like they have an Irish version of the 'one drop rule'.

Exactly - Lord Carson saw himself as an Irishman, even Paisley admitted that he was Irish. Many unionists in NI see themselves as British and Irish.

It's the conflation of Irishness and nationalism that's the issue, not Irishness in itself. In fact, a good way of helping to warm relations is to help Unionists discover and find their own Irish identity without insisting that to be Irish you must be a certain kind of Irish.

Last edited by Tequila on 27 Sep 2012, 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

puddingmouse
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27 Sep 2012, 5:33 pm

Tequila wrote:

puddingmouse wrote:

EDIT: What a lot of Irish Americans don't get as well is that you can be both British and Irish or half English/Irish. It's like they have an Irish version of the 'one drop rule'.

It's also possible to be Irish/British/both and not have strong opinions on the NI issues.

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Tequila
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27 Sep 2012, 5:34 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

It's also possible to be Irish/British/both and not have strong opinions on the NI issues.

Yup.

GGPViper
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27 Sep 2012, 5:34 pm

Tequila wrote:

GGPViper wrote:

I see no real disagreement. However, I would not consider China even a socialist regime. IMO, it's more like authoritarianism + (recently) capitalism. But my mileage might vary.

Would you not say that it's an authoritarian regime with an extreme amount of bureaucracy and a sort of quasi-capitalism?

Since I have already been co-responsible for one massive thread de-railing, I will make no counter-claims. But I see no real disagreement, as it would be foolish to assume that Chinese capitalism (or any actually present capitalism) would be even remotely perfect...

Tequila
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27 Sep 2012, 5:40 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

Tbh, saying that 'Finally someone other than Joker to stand up for being Irish' doesn't relate to the discussion, either.

Bear in mind that extreme form of Irishness isn't shared by most Irish people. It's like saying that BNP supporters stand up for being British, when really most British people just find them to be obnoxious racists.

puddingmouse wrote:

As someone who lives geographically much closer to Ireland and grew up in the Irish community in her city, I just feel bemused when Americans have strong opinions on Irish politics, presumably because it makes up a fraction of their 'heritage'.

Yip. Why aren't they similarly entranced by the politics of Liechtenstein or Moldova?

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Sorry if that sounds harsh.

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YippySkippy
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27 Sep 2012, 5:43 pm

Quote:

Tbh, saying that 'Finally someone other than Joker to stand up for being Irish' doesn't relate to the discussion, either.

It related to the conversation preceeding it.

Quote:

I think it's silly to say that certain people have more of a right to take an interest in certain things than other people.
If it makes you feel better, I am married to a man from County Wicklow, lived there for several years, and have a dual-nationality son born in Dublin.
Can I discuss Irish politics now?

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27 Sep 2012, 5:46 pm

I don't think most people sympathetic to Irish Nationalism are extremists. I mean, Joker was, but it was hard to tell how serious he was. I think people just sympathise with the IRA thinking that it's like sympathising with the PLO, and that we're talking about 'freedom fighters' and not 'terrorists' here. They haven't properly realised what a bunch of scumbags the IRA are, or if they have, they use the excuse that the UDF are just as bad (a sort of two wrongs making a right logic).

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