Why do people still blame communism?
Sweetleaf
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Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,157
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
Kurgan wrote:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz2p4EQtEXs[/youtube]
Why is it that most people who still believe in Marxism are either dropouts or hold some kind of bachelor's degree in something useless? Why are rarely people with master's degrees in economics, in engineering or in law radical socialists?
Why is it that most people who still believe in Marxism are either dropouts or hold some kind of bachelor's degree in something useless? Why are rarely people with master's degrees in economics, in engineering or in law radical socialists?
And are you the authority on which degrees are useful and which aren't? I can see you are a strong supporter of having different classes of people........I'm not which is why I am sure we will never agree.
_________________
Metal never dies. \m/
Sweetleaf wrote:
Never said a flat screen television, gaming console and fashionable clothes was a human right did I? Not everyone in the u.s has a place to sleep for the night and more than enough food.....I see people that don't all the time.
They pretty much have themselves to blame for their homelessness.
Quote:
Perhaps you never go outside or there isn't a problem with homelessness around wherever you live.
Homeless people here spend their welfare checks on drugs.
Quote:
Also would that mean people with disabilities preventing them from work should only have a place to sleep for the night and food because they can't work harder to 'deserve' more then the very basic minimums,
They have the basic minimums in the US. Anyone with an intellectual disability automatically qualifies for disability. Most people who won't bother to finish high school have an IQ of more than 70, though.
Quote:
I suppose they should get rid of medicaid because that's more than food and a place to sleep for the night. That sort of thinking simply would not work if implemented into government policy.
That's a false analogy. Cancer patients die without treatment; people who chose to not finish high school don't die if they don't eat turkey for thanksgiving or don't drive a car with leather seats and a digital radio.
Quote:
Also maybe the labratorium at the university for countless hours is more straining mentally, but the physical toll that comes with hard labor like spending countless hours preparing houses for painting them, climbing ladders, painting, touching up and carrying heavy equipment is probably a bit more than someone who spends most of their time in a labratorium has to deal with. I personally don't think one is necessarily harder or easier just that both should be paid decent wages.
People who paint houses have a place to sleep and have food on the table. Add free healthcare to this and they have everything the public is responsible for giving them.
Quote:
That's another terribly ignorant/uneducated thing to say, you're not the engineering graduate you used as an example are you?
I'm working on a degree as we speak. I also have two jobs on the side, but not because I want the government to steal my money and give it to someone who dropped out of high school to party and play video games.
Quote:
Also I am not so sure anyone should be a billionaire, its probably too much for a human to handle without being corrupted by greed and having it go to their head. Also I am sure they can pay their way out of legal trouble to, so they don't have to deal with the pesky consequences less wealthy people do.
Lawyers aren't magical fairies. You can't buy yourself out of trouble just like that. Corrupt judges that will take the bribe are real, but they're the exception and not the rule.
Sweetleaf wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz2p4EQtEXs[/youtube]
Why is it that most people who still believe in Marxism are either dropouts or hold some kind of bachelor's degree in something useless? Why are rarely people with master's degrees in economics, in engineering or in law radical socialists?
Why is it that most people who still believe in Marxism are either dropouts or hold some kind of bachelor's degree in something useless? Why are rarely people with master's degrees in economics, in engineering or in law radical socialists?
And are you the authority on which degrees are useful and which aren't? I can see you are a strong supporter of having different classes of people........I'm not which is why I am sure we will never agree.
The market as well as common sense is the authority on that. Does someone with a bachelor's degree in social studies or philosophy generate as much value to society as someone with a degree in engineering?
Different classes are not necessarily a bad thing. Hard work should be rewarded. Imagine you studied really hard for an exam and got an A—but the guy next to you didn't care to study and got an E. Would it be fair to split your A in half so that the both of you got a C instead of the grades you actually deserved?
androbot2084 wrote:
Everyone has this idea that they deserve more money than their inferiors. A Doctor believes he deserves more money than a janitor and now we have millionaire preachers who feel that they are entitled to more money.
They are paid more money because their services, skills and specialized knowledge are in higher demand relative to supply. If anyone's acting entitled to anything here, it's the socialists who refuse to accept the consequences of subjective value, marginal analysis, and supply and demand.
Sweetleaf
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,157
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
Kurgan wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Never said a flat screen television, gaming console and fashionable clothes was a human right did I? Not everyone in the u.s has a place to sleep for the night and more than enough food.....I see people that don't all the time.
They pretty much have themselves to blame for their homelessness.
Clearly you have not been educated on the causes of homelessness, or the connection between serious mental illnesses/or physical disabilities and homelessness. Because in the real world there are many factors that can lead to homelessness that might be things out of that persons control. Sure one could decide not to do anything anymore and then eventually people would get sick of it and they would be homeless rightly so....but I am pretty sure that is not the story behind most homeless people.
Quote:
Perhaps you never go outside or there isn't a problem with homelessness around wherever you live.
Homeless people here spend their welfare checks on drugs.
That's all, all of them spend it on? they don't get food or other things they need? Hmm homeless people around here tend to vary quite a bit more than that.
Quote:
Also would that mean people with disabilities preventing them from work should only have a place to sleep for the night and food because they can't work harder to 'deserve' more then the very basic minimums,
They have the basic minimums in the US. Anyone with an intellectual disability automatically qualifies for disability. Most people who won't bother to finish high school have an IQ of more than 70, though.
Well then it wasn't that they weren't smart enough for the material, I guess. Also I am well aware they have the basic minimums, and many have more than that which is a good thing since ones life shouldn't have to suck just because they have a disability. Also there are other mental conditions that qualify one for disability than mental retardation.
Quote:
I suppose they should get rid of medicaid because that's more than food and a place to sleep for the night. That sort of thinking simply would not work if implemented into government policy.
That's a false analogy. Cancer patients die without treatment; people who chose to not finish high school don't die if they don't eat turkey for thanksgiving or don't drive a car with leather seats and a digital radio.
I was talking about people with disabilities on welfare, not people who didn't finish high school in general though I am sure some who didn't finish highschool fit that catagory. being a drop out doesn't qualify you for medicaid being disabled or over 65 does.
I don't see where I implied that highschool drop outs need medicaid?
Quote:
Also maybe the labratorium at the university for countless hours is more straining mentally, but the physical toll that comes with hard labor like spending countless hours preparing houses for painting them, climbing ladders, painting, touching up and carrying heavy equipment is probably a bit more than someone who spends most of their time in a labratorium has to deal with. I personally don't think one is necessarily harder or easier just that both should be paid decent wages.
People who paint houses have a place to sleep and have food on the table. Add free healthcare to this and they have everything the public is responsible for giving them.
Umm it is a job, people who paint houses are paid a salary and that is the money they have, since when was house/building painting a publicly funded service. Its not the public that puts their food on the table or gives them a place to sleep.......thats the money they make or if its not enough then they can't nessisarily afford all those things. There are also periods of being out of work in that job in which case you can easily end up broke, and unable to afford those things.
Quote:
That's another terribly ignorant/uneducated thing to say, you're not the engineering graduate you used as an example are you?
I'm working on a degree as we speak. I also have two jobs on the side, but not because I want the government to steal my money and give it to someone who dropped out of high school to party and play video games.
You mean you don't think you should have to pay taxes, but should still benefit from public services you might need such as a fire truck if your house catches fire? Because there is a chance in a roundabout way some of your tax money would end up in the pocket of someone on welfare. What makes you so sure the specific money you pay in taxes would go to that specific individual you describe, maybe it would go to someone on welfare because they have cancer and PTSD for instance.
Quote:
Also I am not so sure anyone should be a billionaire, its probably too much for a human to handle without being corrupted by greed and having it go to their head. Also I am sure they can pay their way out of legal trouble to, so they don't have to deal with the pesky consequences less wealthy people do.
Lawyers aren't magical fairies. You can't buy yourself out of trouble just like that. Corrupt judges that will take the bribe are real, but they're the exception and not the rule.
Didn't suggest they where magical faries in fact I don't recall mentioning lawyers, and you've confirmed one can buy their way out of trouble......if there really are corrupt judges that will take a bribe then obviously I wasn't too far off the truth.
_________________
Metal never dies. \m/
Sweetleaf
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,157
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
Kurgan wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pz2p4EQtEXs[/youtube]
Why is it that most people who still believe in Marxism are either dropouts or hold some kind of bachelor's degree in something useless? Why are rarely people with master's degrees in economics, in engineering or in law radical socialists?
Why is it that most people who still believe in Marxism are either dropouts or hold some kind of bachelor's degree in something useless? Why are rarely people with master's degrees in economics, in engineering or in law radical socialists?
And are you the authority on which degrees are useful and which aren't? I can see you are a strong supporter of having different classes of people........I'm not which is why I am sure we will never agree.
The market as well as common sense is the authority on that. Does someone with a bachelor's degree in social studies or philosophy generate as much value to society as someone with a degree in engineering?
Different classes are not necessarily a bad thing. Hard work should be rewarded. Imagine you studied really hard for an exam and got an A—but the guy next to you didn't care to study and got an E. Would it be fair to split your A in half so that the both of you got a C instead of the grades you actually deserved?
It depends on what that individual does with the degree, a degree in engineering alone isn't going to make you valuable to society, what is done with it would determine that.
Well there is a problem here, grades don't always reflect the amount of effort put in....it would be better if both students keep the grades they got and the one who did worse gets more help with the school-work if needed. But there should not be an automatic assumption it was a lack of effort that led to the grade. Its not so much the kid 'deserves' a failing grade but it should be what can be done to help that child improve.
Also though the child with the better grade is not 'better' than the one without and that is what a class system encourages the need to be 'better' than someone...I just don't agree with having different classes of people but I can't make anyone else agree now can I.
Also what is it they say about things in excess, I think that includes work there is a such thing as too much work.
_________________
Metal never dies. \m/
Sweetleaf wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Never said a flat screen television, gaming console and fashionable clothes was a human right did I? Not everyone in the u.s has a place to sleep for the night and more than enough food.....I see people that don't all the time.
They pretty much have themselves to blame for their homelessness.
Clearly you have not been educated on the causes of homelessness, or the connection between serious mental illnesses/or physical disabilities and homelessness. Because in the real world there are many factors that can lead to homelessness that might be things out of that persons control. Sure one could decide not to do anything anymore and then eventually people would get sick of it and they would be homeless rightly so....but I am pretty sure that is not the story behind most homeless people.
Quote:
Perhaps you never go outside or there isn't a problem with homelessness around wherever you live.
Homeless people here spend their welfare checks on drugs.
That's all, all of them spend it on? they don't get food or other things they need? Hmm homeless people around here tend to vary quite a bit more than that.
Quote:
Also would that mean people with disabilities preventing them from work should only have a place to sleep for the night and food because they can't work harder to 'deserve' more then the very basic minimums,
They have the basic minimums in the US. Anyone with an intellectual disability automatically qualifies for disability. Most people who won't bother to finish high school have an IQ of more than 70, though.
Well then it wasn't that they weren't smart enough for the material, I guess. Also I am well aware they have the basic minimums, and many have more than that which is a good thing since ones life shouldn't have to suck just because they have a disability. Also there are other mental conditions that qualify one for disability than mental retardation.
Quote:
I suppose they should get rid of medicaid because that's more than food and a place to sleep for the night. That sort of thinking simply would not work if implemented into government policy.
That's a false analogy. Cancer patients die without treatment; people who chose to not finish high school don't die if they don't eat turkey for thanksgiving or don't drive a car with leather seats and a digital radio.
I was talking about people with disabilities on welfare, not people who didn't finish high school in general though I am sure some who didn't finish highschool fit that catagory. being a drop out doesn't qualify you for medicaid being disabled or over 65 does.
I don't see where I implied that highschool drop outs need medicaid?
Quote:
Also maybe the labratorium at the university for countless hours is more straining mentally, but the physical toll that comes with hard labor like spending countless hours preparing houses for painting them, climbing ladders, painting, touching up and carrying heavy equipment is probably a bit more than someone who spends most of their time in a labratorium has to deal with. I personally don't think one is necessarily harder or easier just that both should be paid decent wages.
People who paint houses have a place to sleep and have food on the table. Add free healthcare to this and they have everything the public is responsible for giving them.
Umm it is a job, people who paint houses are paid a salary and that is the money they have, since when was house/building painting a publicly funded service. Its not the public that puts their food on the table or gives them a place to sleep.......thats the money they make or if its not enough then they can't nessisarily afford all those things. There are also periods of being out of work in that job in which case you can easily end up broke, and unable to afford those things.
Quote:
That's another terribly ignorant/uneducated thing to say, you're not the engineering graduate you used as an example are you?
I'm working on a degree as we speak. I also have two jobs on the side, but not because I want the government to steal my money and give it to someone who dropped out of high school to party and play video games.
You mean you don't think you should have to pay taxes, but should still benefit from public services you might need such as a fire truck if your house catches fire? Because there is a chance in a roundabout way some of your tax money would end up in the pocket of someone on welfare. What makes you so sure the specific money you pay in taxes would go to that specific individual you describe, maybe it would go to someone on welfare because they have cancer and PTSD for instance.
Quote:
Also I am not so sure anyone should be a billionaire, its probably too much for a human to handle without being corrupted by greed and having it go to their head. Also I am sure they can pay their way out of legal trouble to, so they don't have to deal with the pesky consequences less wealthy people do.
Lawyers aren't magical fairies. You can't buy yourself out of trouble just like that. Corrupt judges that will take the bribe are real, but they're the exception and not the rule.
Didn't suggest they where magical faries in fact I don't recall mentioning lawyers, and you've confirmed one can buy their way out of trouble......if there really are corrupt judges that will take a bribe then obviously I wasn't too far off the truth.
How else would they pay themselves out of trouble? Like I said, those judges are the exception and not the rule.
Sweetleaf
Veteran

Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 35,157
Location: Somewhere in Colorado
Kurgan wrote:
How else would they pay themselves out of trouble? Like I said, those judges are the exception and not the rule.
I wasn't suggesting they do it another way....I wasn't exactly sure how they went about it, apparently money and corrupt judges. So it appears there isn't a how else.
_________________
Metal never dies. \m/
OddButWhy wrote:
xenon13 wrote:
I think it can be safely said that Communism is to be credited with the improvements we have had particularly since World War II and the one-sided class war that followed the end of the east bloc and the rolling back of those improvements provides proof of that.
It certainly is true that US society has turned on itself in the wake of the collapse of Soviet communism. I see this as the tendency of this society to need an enemy to unite against. In the absence of an external enemy, societal elements turn against each other, or build upon previously-existing divisions. Somewhat the same thing as what you're saying about the class war, since class is one of those internal divisions.
I'm curious why you think communism is responsible for improvements since WWII, since many major elements of the progressive state were already in place before WWII, like Social Security, a 40 hour work week, better workplace safety, a progressive income tax, the vote for women, and antitrust legislation.
Communism was deemed a threat following the Bolshevik Revolution. Why, even before then there was fear of radicals and that they had feasible plans, even including anarchism. The post-war period marked a high point of Soviet prestige, and it was only in the late '70s when it became clear that there was trouble with China and the USSR to the point where Western-based radicals distanced themselves considerably. It helped clear the ground somewhat for neoliberalism.
androbot2084 wrote:
The reason why selfish people hold on to power is that most people care what others think about them. For example if more people started to think like me the religious leaders would immediately denounce them as a communist or even worse as an atheist or satanist. Since a normal person cannot even comprehend the idea of being denounced as a heretic normal people find it more comfortable to believe that God blesses people that are filthy rich and that the only solution to poverty is to become filthy rich yourself by exploiting other people.
I think the insidious effects of Greed is Good and social darwinian neoliberalism is that it provides a moral code that celebrates greed and rapaciousness whereas in the past with a different moral code such people would be more restrained.
OddButWhy wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
No it's just that the selfish people hold the power.
As the always have and always will.
One of the dilemmas in forming a workable political/social/economic system is to recognize that the selfish, opportunistic, ruthless, rapacious, etc, will always gravitate towards positions that promise them power over others. Given that, how do you structure the system so they can accumulate and enjoy the perks of wealth and status while permitting them to do the least harm to everyone else? A capitalist, constitutionally-limited government seems to be a good way to accomplish this goal: capitalism permits the individual to accumulate wealth and enjoy its advantages; while the status–minded and power-hungry can participate in the political system; and constitutional limits prevent both groups, either singly or combined, from wielding unlimited power over everyone else.
It's not perfect, no human creation is, but it can be workable.
But wealth tends to lead to power, even within an enforced framework of laws preventing fraud and theft. Those with more can always outplay those with less. They have the bargaining leverage. Inequality taken to extremes will harm society no matter how one tries to legitimize it.
RushKing wrote:
Fnord wrote:
RushKing wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Communism looks good on paper, but is impractical in the long term because one of its basic presumptions is that greed and lust for power can evolve out of humans.
Humans are flock animals, hunter gatherers survived by cooperating rather than competing. Greed is conditioned by the context we live under.Babies know only their own hunger, thirst, and discomfort. Their cries are demands for attention and resolution. They are the ultimate consumer, and they have to be taught that they are not the center of the universe. Many don't learn this lesson until they have children of their own.
Greed is an infantile urge - "I, Me, and Mine" is the by-law of anyone who hasn't fully matured.
xenon13 wrote:
We owe our good fortunes in the West to Communism and we can see much of what we won be stripped away now that it is no longer seen as a threat. We must praise Communism here in the West.
Communism is as dead as dust. And Marxism never lead to any practical economic order. Ever.
Do you know why? Human nature. Humans are self interested.
Do the following gedanken experiment. Two children are drowning in a river. One is your child and the other is the neighbors child who you like well enough. You can only save one. Which do you save? Aha... I thought so....,
ruveyn
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