income inequality and abortion

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Again ... all of us pay taxes and some of the money goes to things we would not personally support. Why is your cause so holy?

Also, as someone else pointed out, abortion is never funded by the government anyway, so your bleating about "my money" is just that ... ignorant bleating.

From a US perspective:
In some individual states, abortion is indirectly funded (via Planned Parenthood).

That being said, I think the issue of government funded abortion is being blown way out of proportion.

The estimated annual cost of all abortions performed in the United States is around $980 million. Federal spending amounts to around $3.796 trillion (2012). That means that even if the federal government paid 100% of the costs for every single abortion performed, it would still be a little under 0.026% (or around 1/40th of 1%) of federal spending.

This isn't about government spending. I tried the same argument with sex reassignment surgery...

Nor is it about the concept of medical necessity. I tried the same argument with sex reassignment surgery...

Those forms of argument are both obvious smoke screens. The real issue is about some people simply *not liking* abortion, and - realising that they have lost the political battle over the legality of abortion itself - try to prevent it by indirect means.

Where would I have written it to be holy? I am atheist.

Founding of certain stuff like a modern art theatre or whatever, I think the money could got spend better, is something that troubles me in the way, that I think we could discuss if that money could spent in other places better. So there is maybe a better use of the money, but the existence of an modern art theatre in the end doesnt affect me that much.

Being a murder, would trouble me. I dont want to be a murder, I dont want to be involved in murder, I dont want to support murder, because in my oppinion all of that makes me a murderer.

The right FOR abortion is for me something I wont bother you at all. If you want to read the forums history, I have always been pro abortion. Forbidding it dont prevent abortion, but only supports illegal abortion. Personally the five months some US counties have, are a bit too long for me personally, but where I live its 10 weeks, so at least its in a time, where there is no ability to feel pain, and if that is the way it is, then that is the way it is for me.

Its ok for me, if you feel fine with that. Its ok for me, if its for you only an termination of potential life for you. Its ok for me that there are different people, having different oppinions and different feelings toward it.

But different opinions involves other opinions as well. Some people dont feel of it as an termination of potential life. For some people that feels like human being, mechanically forced to die by an humans purpose, which is simply murder for them. Murder that simply cannot be prevented, or affected, because of us not being involved, so if we cannot prevent or affect it, accepting it, is all that is possible. So I accept it. I am not responsible about it, so I dont feel personally guilty about it. I can as well accept with other people not feeling guilty about it

But asking why this bothers me, when others want for force me to be involved into it, is like asking why it would bother me, when you come to my house, force me to take a weapon you give, go to my neighbor and shoot him.

I accept abortion, because there is simply no way to go against it, so why waste all that emotions and troubles on something that cannot be affected by all of that. I am ok, if it does not for you and if you are fine with that. But for me, being involved into it feels otherwise, for me its me being a murderer, and I dont know, why you pretend not to understand, that its naturally troubling for most people to think of themselves as murders, if they think of themselves as murderers. If someone shoots someone else accidently or kills him accidently with a car, then I think everyone will understand, why this guy will troubling him with allegations and feel bad about it. Even when he isnt even guilty of it, this will trouble you. So why is it so hard to understand, that I dont want to become responsible of something, that becomes murdering to me? And that this is troubling me much more then "my money going to something I dont support." It doesnt help me, that you would feel otherwise. That wont help me, feeling guilty and sh***y. Around here most of people easily would understand why people dont want to feel horrible sh***y. Supporting by law a modern art theatre may not have my total agreement, but that doesnt make me feel horrible sh***y and question myself, how I could let this happen. Feeling guilty of being a murder does. Again, I can understand people having other opinions about that, and dont blame them not feeling that way. But the same understanding I want as well for me being me and not them, and the feelings that I have.

Maybe you got me wrong all the time, that my feeling would be about blaming you as murderer or whatever. I can live with it being something else for you. I can accept that. But I cannot transform myself into you, just as you cant into me. Have your oppinion about it and its done, thats the way it is around here. There are no big discussions or anything about it. Its simply accepted, that for some people it is fine, because it does not feel like murder. And for some people doing it is not fine, because they would personally feel like themselves being murderers. Both of it is accepted, and everyone will tell you, simply to go what feels best for you. And for me it feels best, not taking that responsibility out of my personal emotions toward it.

Where is the freedom of the choice toward abortion, when you force abortion on everyone? O_o I dont want to abort. How weird have we gotten, when its not the right to abort, but the right to not abort, that we now need to talk about? O_o

Who is forcing people to abort? Who is lacking the right to not abort?

My finger is human flesh but it isn't a human. Same with a fetus. Would that your compassion extended to actual babies and mothers, that would be something.

I part company with the pro-choice crowd when it comes to describing a fetus as something less than a human being.

A fetus is a unique individual, and a fetus is undeniably human. I acknowledge without reservation that a fetus is a unique human being--but that does not make a fetus a person. But my support for a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy is in no way impeded by this acknowledgement.

I don't think AspE denies that an unborn is genetically of the species Homo sapiens.

I think a case can be made that you aren't "a human" until you have an element of bodily autonomy (a much stronger case than the one that says being human makes you a person- in other mammals the case is even stronger because the young are much more developed than human babies, which are pretty pathetic really), but I got the impression that AspE was just conflating "person" and "human".

Just out of curiosity (since I agree with you on most of the rest of this subject), at what point do you start thinking of it as 'a human'? After fertilization, after implantation, after the circulatory system starts to form, after the nervous system starts to form?

I I pay a mechanic to repair my car, its me causing my car to get repaired. If I pay a man to kill a human, its me causing this human too get killed. I dont want to kill a human.

How weird are you, making me allegations, about not wanting me to be responsible about killing someone? O_o

You aren't paying for abortions though. You're paying taxes.

If you put money in a homeless person's hat and he uses it to buy a smoothie, have you bought a smoothie?
If you buy a Volkswagen and the owner of VW buys McDonalds, have you bought McDonalds?

I'm sorry, this is too fun to not reduce to absurdity...

If McDonalds pays a lumberjack to clear rainforest for their cows and the lumberjack uses the money to buy a vaccination for his children, did you buy a car, a fast food company and a vaccination?
If a scientist at a drugs company pays to have an abortion with the wages they earn from manufacturing the vaccine, is buying a Volkswagen equivalent to buying an abortion?

the ultimate hypocrisy here is that 'pro-life' people have no issue with paying taxes to a government that then spends it on drone missiles that wipes out a family in Pakistan, but whenever proposals are made to give economically less well off women access to abortions they lose their s**t.

"If you think foetuses are more important than women, try getting a foetus to wash the s**t stains out of your underwear"
-George Carlin

It doesn't reduce to absurdity so easily as you'd have us believe. In a totalitarian or authoritarian society, you'd be exactly right.

The problem, and why this isn't absurd, is that in a FREE society, such as democratic or republic forms of government, it's the will of the people that predominantly determines what it is tax money supports. Someone who opposes abortion on various grounds--religious grounds as an example--cannot escape the fact that through paying taxes he or she is tacitly supporting infanticide. This isn't something a person like that can do in good conscience.

And I'm using religious objections as just one example. You don't have to be religious to understand that abortion is murdering babies (more often than not, of course). If you're opposed to murder, then it makes sense you'd oppose abortion on principle. Nor would you be inclined to allow for the murder of the unborn. If that's the position you find yourself in, you can go for activism and public protest, and/or civil disobedience by refusing to pay taxes. Your best bet, of course, is make every effort to vote for representatives who would see to it that abortion is eliminated rather than to support it by tucking your tail between your legs, sticking your head in the sand, be a good little boy/girl and pay your taxes because you fear punishment from a government that encourages infanticide.

In a free society, you don't merely have the "right" to speak and vote your conscience...you have the DUTY and RESPONSIBILITY to.

I agree completely. Render unto Caesar what is due to Caesar, but we are not living under Caesars anymore.