Atheism apologist Dawkins: Down Syndrome abortions are moral

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Spectacles
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05 Sep 2014, 12:28 am

Like others here have mentioned, if it's okay to have abortion for non-DS fetuses, what's the difference? Obviously some people would choose to do so, and some won't. Is it devaluing the lives of "normal" kids when someone chooses to abort of a non-DS fetus? Isn't this a big part of the anti-abortion argument altogether?
Arguments towards the "potential life" of a fetus are kind of irrelevant if you are okay with abortion in the first place. A non-DS fetus has just as much of a chance of living a fulfilling, meaningful life as a DS fetus, as many here have noted, but then, so what?
I think the argument here is how far is society willing to go to define what is "normal". If the fetus is known to have an expected life span of less than a year, is it really worth putting the parents through all that trauma and (let's be realistic) financial draining? What if you knew that the fetus was going to be born with most of its brain missing, or without any limbs, or will never be able to live on it's own due to intellectual disabilities. Where does one draw the line?
On the other side, I haven't heard of anyone argue against research that tries to get rid of paralysis, or tries to get someone who's wheelchair-bound walking. In fact, we celebrate breakthroughs in technology that allow a blind person to see something, or an exoskeleton that allows someone who's partially paralyzed to walk. The cochlear implant was met with mixed feelings though.
So how does one draw the line? Instead of all the investment into technological innovations, should be investing in social innovations that are more "different" friendly? Should someone be allowed the power to end another person's life before it even begins? What are the parameters that allows such a decision to be a moral one?



heavenlyabyss
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05 Sep 2014, 5:15 am

What a fascist.

The way I approach abortion is if the baby has a good chance of having happy life, not whether it has a good chance of "contribution to society." I don't see any reason why someone with Down's Syndrome should not have a happy life. Maybe I am ignorant though.



trollcatman
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05 Sep 2014, 5:31 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
What a fascist.

The way I approach abortion is if the baby has a good chance of having happy life, not whether it has a good chance of "contribution to society." I don't see any reason why someone with Down's Syndrome should not have a happy life. Maybe I am ignorant though.


I think most people agree that people with Down can have a happy life. Still, around 90% of Down babies are aborted. I think many people change their mind when it actually falls upon them to raise a child that is more difficult to raise than the "average" child.



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05 Sep 2014, 9:32 am

trollcatman wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
What a fascist.

The way I approach abortion is if the baby has a good chance of having happy life, not whether it has a good chance of "contribution to society." I don't see any reason why someone with Down's Syndrome should not have a happy life. Maybe I am ignorant though.


I think most people agree that people with Down can have a happy life. Still, around 90% of Down babies are aborted. I think many people change their mind when it actually falls upon them to raise a child that is more difficult to raise than the "average" child.


That could just as well be applied to those of us with autism. My daughter can be a more-than-average handful, and so was I when I was a kid.


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05 Sep 2014, 10:13 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
What a fascist.

The way I approach abortion is if the baby has a good chance of having happy life, not whether it has a good chance of "contribution to society." I don't see any reason why someone with Down's Syndrome should not have a happy life. Maybe I am ignorant though.


I think most people agree that people with Down can have a happy life. Still, around 90% of Down babies are aborted. I think many people change their mind when it actually falls upon them to raise a child that is more difficult to raise than the "average" child.


That could just as well be applied to those of us with autism. My daughter can be a more-than-average handful, and so was I when I was a kid.


When the technology is there to detect autism in unborn children, you know what will happen.



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05 Sep 2014, 12:53 pm

trollcatman wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
What a fascist.

The way I approach abortion is if the baby has a good chance of having happy life, not whether it has a good chance of "contribution to society." I don't see any reason why someone with Down's Syndrome should not have a happy life. Maybe I am ignorant though.


I think most people agree that people with Down can have a happy life. Still, around 90% of Down babies are aborted. I think many people change their mind when it actually falls upon them to raise a child that is more difficult to raise than the "average" child.


That could just as well be applied to those of us with autism. My daughter can be a more-than-average handful, and so was I when I was a kid.


When the technology is there to detect autism in unborn children, you know what will happen.


Yes, unfortunately. :(


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05 Sep 2014, 2:14 pm

trollcatman wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
What a fascist.

The way I approach abortion is if the baby has a good chance of having happy life, not whether it has a good chance of "contribution to society." I don't see any reason why someone with Down's Syndrome should not have a happy life. Maybe I am ignorant though.


I think most people agree that people with Down can have a happy life. Still, around 90% of Down babies are aborted. I think many people change their mind when it actually falls upon them to raise a child that is more difficult to raise than the "average" child.


That's true. But I also agree he's a fascist. There is a gigantic difference between observing that most women abort fetuses with Down Syndrome and claiming that anyone who doesn't is immoral. The gap between "most do" and "everybody should" is so immense I'm amazed it hasn't been the focus of the thread. Instead there are discussions of the quality of life of the future person. To me, the quality of life is beside the point. Once you decide that giving birth to a certain baby is immoral, a line has been crossed. A line that had not been yet crossed with choice abortion.



Spectacles
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05 Sep 2014, 4:26 pm

trollcatman wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
heavenlyabyss wrote:
What a fascist.

The way I approach abortion is if the baby has a good chance of having happy life, not whether it has a good chance of "contribution to society." I don't see any reason why someone with Down's Syndrome should not have a happy life. Maybe I am ignorant though.


I think most people agree that people with Down can have a happy life. Still, around 90% of Down babies are aborted. I think many people change their mind when it actually falls upon them to raise a child that is more difficult to raise than the "average" child.


That could just as well be applied to those of us with autism. My daughter can be a more-than-average handful, and so was I when I was a kid.


When the technology is there to detect autism in unborn children, you know what will happen.


Again, what if? If society were more different-friendly, then there would be no need to concern yourself of the abortion thing, because, by definition, these traits would no longer fall under the category of "disability", and thus abortion to autism/DS would just be abortion. Making the world a safer/better place for different kinds of people should always take precedence over trying to decide for other people what set of circumstances should let parents decide when it is appropriate to abort.

Personally, it wouldn't have made much of a difference to me if my folks woulda decided to abort me because of falling in the spectrum (since a fetus can't really think ;P). If I were to be honest with myself, it probably would have made their lives easier. This post is not meant to be interpreted as self-loathing. It's just the way things are. In my case, my folks didn't abort, and so I'm here. So what?