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1401b
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27 Dec 2014, 8:52 pm

Narrator wrote:
1401b wrote:
Yes but we DO have television now, so science should just stop and let us watch it.

If we went that way, we would still have low resolution, black and white, tube based television.

Yes, but we don't so it's fine now. The Earth is round and we have kewl TVs. Enough is enough.

Narrator wrote:
We each have different gifts and talents.

"insert religious super-being's name here"... Given gifts and talents!

Narrator wrote:
Would you hold back an Einstein type of person from enjoying what he does?

Yes, if he's a heathen.

Narrator wrote:
Don't feel stupid

Don't tell me what to do!

Narrator wrote:
It's the things you love that make you feel good.

We're not here to feel good, but to be holy.

Narrator wrote:
1401b wrote:
Believing the One and Only Truth prevents all this!
With Jesus we can always be 100% right, even while watching TV!

That's a different thing.

How is this a different thing? It saves us from the psychological evils caused by learning all the time.

Narrator wrote:
1401b wrote:
It's greedy colleges that try to say we need to learn things all the time and then they judge us!
Tuition is far higher than Tithe.

I agree. Education these days is mostly for the smart students who don't have personal issues. For 6 years, I taught students who had lots of personal issues. Those students and their issues are mostly ignored by the system. Politicians throw a little money at what they think are solutions, without understanding how little that helps. Students came into my class with low self-belief - capable students who didn't believe they were capable. But because of how the school system is organized, many of those students will leave school without realizing their true abilities - frozen in the numbness of their circumstances.

I'm glad you agree that science is unhealthy.

Narrator wrote:
1401b wrote:
Science needs to just stop, it's good enough for now.

No. It's not science that needs to change. It's the Darwinian education system where only the fittest survive. If science stopped once a thing was invented, the only keyboard you would be using now would be on a simple calculator.

Yes, but we do have it now so it should just stop now.


ur fun! =)


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27 Dec 2014, 9:20 pm

So, you would hold back a person from exercising his or her brilliance if he or she was a "heathen".

THAT is one of the biggest things that is wrong with religion - the belief that a people who follow a different belief system should not be allows to exercise their beliefs at all.

What you espouse is not being "holy"; it is instead religious oppression.

What next, fatwas against scientists? Flying airliners into university buildings?


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eric76
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27 Dec 2014, 9:28 pm

tomato wrote:
A) There is a huge amount of corruption if you will in science. However, this has led me to think a lot about what corruption really is, but anyway. What I mean is that there is a huge amount of steering of results of research, manipulation of data, careful planning of what you present and how, choosing the methods of research, more or less lying with statistics, hiding things you don't want people to see, and showing what you want to show etc.


I've never noticed very much of that. Some, but not a whole lot.

When others do the same experiments and see if they get the same results, it can detract from the reputation of those doing it. I used to know one young professor who was trying to make a name for himself. When one of his grad students packed up and left, I ate lunch with him while he was cleaning out his apartment. He said that one problem the prof had was that nobody else could repeat the prof's research because they tweaked it so much to make it work but never mentioned the tweaking in any research periodicals. There was another prof doing similar work at a university about 100 miles away but with different methods with far more consistent results.

For the most part, though, I think that the more important research is generally pretty high quality.

tomato wrote:
B) The more science and technology advance the higher the capabilities are to control people and their minds. There are countless examples of this. I'll take two. Surveillance. If you can see exactly who is doing what, you can silence anyone you want very efficiently for example. The second example is video production and distribution. I thought about this when I watched a stand-up clip recently. When you have very advanced video production technology you can for example cut out boos from the audience on an original recording of a live stand-up performance so that you won't have that on youtube, DVDs etc. If people who attended the live performance notice this and write about it online, you can use surveillance to detect all mentionings of this and have those discussions removed.
I don't see the problem in your example. Are you saying that all the crowd noise should appear in the video?



eric76
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27 Dec 2014, 9:33 pm

Fnord wrote:
B) Science reveals the Truth. Religion only tells you what it wants you to believe.


That's a nice observation. The way I look at it is that science tries to get at the truth in a non-authoritarian manner. Religion, on the other hand, is a highly authoritarian approach to make one believe what someone else has come up with.

The old observation that "Man has made God in his own image" is entirely correct. Since we really can't know anything about God, we replace that unattainable knowledge with the imaginative products of other people's minds.



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27 Dec 2014, 9:37 pm

tomato wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
True. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

I think Brave New World by Aldous Huxley illustrates quite well the point I'm trying to put across in this thread. If you take the situation with that pill and extrapolate it to include pretty much all of your perceived universe, all your existence, all your mind, all your opinions, tastes, decisions etc. then what do you have?

Quote:
drops of liquid sealing-wax, drops that adhere, incrust, incorporate themselves with what they fall on, till finally the rock is all one scarlet blob.

"Till at last the child's mind is these suggestions, and the sum of the suggestions is the child's mind. And not the child's mind only. The adult's mind too - all his life long. The mind that judges and desires and decides - made up of these suggestions. But all these suggestions are our suggestions!" The Director almost shouted in his triumph. "Suggestions from the State."


What does this have to do with science?



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27 Dec 2014, 9:38 pm

tomato wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
I've read Huxley, but I don't get your point.

In my view Brave New World is an illustration of the religion of science and how that plays out.

Quote:
Round they went, a circular procession of dancers, each with hands on the hips of the dancer preceding, round and round, shouting in unison, stamping to the rhythm of the music with their feet, beating it, beating it out with hands on the buttocks in front; twelve pairs of hands beating as one; as one, twelve buttocks slabbily resounding. Twelve as one, twelve as one. "I hear Him, I hear Him coming." The music quickened; faster beat the feet, faster, faster fell the rhythmic hands. And all at once a great synthetic bass boomed out the words which announced the approaching atonement and final consummation of solidarity, the coming of the Twelve-in-One, the incarnation of the Greater Being. "Orgy-porgy," it sang, while the tom-toms continued to beat their feverish tattoo:

"Orgy-porgy, Ford and fun,
Kiss the girls and make them One.
Boys at 0ne with girls at peace;
Orgy-porgy gives release."

"Orgy-porgy," the dancers caught up the liturgical refrain, "Orgy-porgy, Ford and fun, kiss the girls …" And as they sang, the lights began slowly to fade-to fade and at the same time to grow warmer, richer, redder, until at last they were dancing in the crimson twilight of an Embryo Store. "Orgy-porgy …" In their blood-coloured and foetal darkness the dancers continued for a while to circulate, to beat and beat out the indefatigable rhythm. "Orgy-porgy …" Then the circle wavered, broke, fell in partial disintegration on the ring of couches which surrounded-circle enclosing circle-the table and its planetary chairs. "Orgy-porgy …" Tenderly the deep Voice crooned and cooed; in the red twilight it was as though some enormous negro dove were hovering benevolently over the now prone or supine dancers.

They were standing on the roof; Big Henry had just sung eleven. The night was calm and warm.

"Wasn't it wonderful?" said Fifi Bradlaugh. "Wasn't it simply wonderful?" She looked at Bernard with an expression of rapture, but of rapture in which there was no trace of agitation or excitement-for to be excited is still to be unsatisfied. Hers was the calm ecstasy of achieved consummation, the peace, not of mere vacant satiety and nothingness, but of balanced life, of energies at rest and in equilibrium. A rich and living peace. For the Solidarity Service had given as well as taken, drawn off only to replenish. She was full, she was made perfect, she was still more than merely herself. "Didn't you think it was wonderful?" she insisted, looking into Bernard's face with those supernaturally shining eyes.


Is this truly your understanding of science?



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27 Dec 2014, 9:41 pm

Narrator wrote:
nerdygirl wrote:
I do not understand the huge veneration of science, either.

Science must bow before mathematics, and this must be taken *very* seriously. No science can even be done without mathematics because measurement itself requires that 1+1 always equals 2. Even for matter to exist, for the world to begin, for life to develop (regardless of how you think it happened), for things to progress in any orderly fashion at all, requires that the concept of numbers and consistent mathematical relationships to exist beforehand.

So where did those concepts come from? They are above matter, and above anything that needs them in order to observe or test anything.

All science comes back to mathematics in the end.


Yes. And mathematics is the least corruptible science imaginable. Mathematical proofs leave no room at all for individual subjective interpretation.



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27 Dec 2014, 9:48 pm

Janissy wrote:
Agree: That no individul can repeat every experiment and must choose to trust others' data

Disagree: That this trust of (some) others' data translates into a blind trust and almost religious veneration of conclusions that researchers present to the public.

I think that what you aren't understanding is why I said "conclusions that researchers present to the public" instead of "science". Science is a process, not a result. You haven't been making that distinction throughout this thread.


It is enough that others have repeated the experiments and came to compatible results. If the results were no in reasonable agreement, then more experiments are needed to determine the reason why. Of course, these others must be reputable researchers who have a reputation that relies on their honest work and evaluation.

If I remember correctly, Richard Feynman described his disgust with one field, I think psychology, for people in the field thinking that there is no need to repeat experiments because the results are already known.



eric76
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27 Dec 2014, 9:50 pm

tomato wrote:
I mentioned that I think corruption is enlightenment. And I compared science and technology to Christianity and socialism/liberalism. I think there is a lot to this comparison of science and technology to Christianity and socialism/liberalism. One example. Feminism vs smartphones and social networks such as facebook. Very much in common. Both lead to alienation, neurosis, introversion and mental inhibition. I have read about Judaism and the path of pain vs the path of truth. This is in Gospel of Thomas:

Quote:
Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."


Feminism creates a lot of frustrated lonely men, among other things. Their interest in women is likely to decrease. And men and women will become more or less androgynous and asexual over time. Or take something like information technology. I think we will become so interconnected that basically every thought will be revealed. If you've done anything in private that you wouldn't be fine with telling everybody about you'll suffer. Doesn't that sound a lot like "judgment day"? I think judgment day is not a day but a gradual process. So what I'm getting at here is that I don't know what science really is in the greater picture, but I think it is a spiritual thing and that suffering is a big part of it, suffering that will enlighten people. Is it painting yourself into a corner, the Chinese finger trap, or is it something else, I don't know. But my view of it is different from the view most people have. And I still think that people have blind veneration for science. They claim to be open-minded and questioning, but can't see the forest for all the trees. It's not different from how it was in the past, there's still very much an outermost exoteric layer of a religion and a hierarchy of enlightenment.


I'm really starting to think that you are trolling.



eric76
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27 Dec 2014, 10:00 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Science is a process, not a result.


In practice, scientists do not maintain this humility. In many areas of science, scientists are sure that they have the answers.


Which areas are those?



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27 Dec 2014, 10:04 pm

1401b wrote:
Narrator wrote:
1401b wrote:
Yes but we DO have television now, so science should just stop and let us watch it.

If we went that way, we would still have low resolution, black and white, tube based television.

Yes, but we don't so it's fine now. The Earth is round and we have kewl TVs. Enough is enough.

Narrator wrote:
We each have different gifts and talents.

"insert religious super-being's name here"... Given gifts and talents!

If you must. I'll just say I disagree, but that's not the question here, so let's not get distracted.
1401b wrote:
Narrator wrote:
Would you hold back an Einstein type of person from enjoying what he does?

Yes, if he's a heathen.

Again, a reason why I departed from religion.
1401b wrote:
Narrator wrote:
Don't feel stupid

Don't tell me what to do!

Go clean your room, son. :P
1401b wrote:
Narrator wrote:
It's the things you love that make you feel good.

We're not here to feel good, but to be holy.

Again, a reason why I departed from religion.
1401b wrote:
Narrator wrote:
1401b wrote:
Believing the One and Only Truth prevents all this!
With Jesus we can always be 100% right, even while watching TV!

That's a different thing.

How is this a different thing? It saves us from the psychological evils caused by learning all the time.

What size do you take in foil helmets?
1401b wrote:
Narrator wrote:
1401b wrote:
It's greedy colleges that try to say we need to learn things all the time and then they judge us!
Tuition is far higher than Tithe.

I agree. Education these days is mostly for the smart students who don't have personal issues. For 6 years, I taught students who had lots of personal issues. Those students and their issues are mostly ignored by the system. Politicians throw a little money at what they think are solutions, without understanding how little that helps. Students came into my class with low self-belief - capable students who didn't believe they were capable. But because of how the school system is organized, many of those students will leave school without realizing their true abilities - frozen in the numbness of their circumstances.

I'm glad you agree that science is unhealthy.

Uh huh... :roll:
1401b wrote:
Narrator wrote:
1401b wrote:
Science needs to just stop, it's good enough for now.

No. It's not science that needs to change. It's the Darwinian education system where only the fittest survive. If science stopped once a thing was invented, the only keyboard you would be using now would be on a simple calculator.

Yes, but we do have it now so it should just stop now.

When do we stop? At colour TV? At flat screens? At 3D TV? At curved screens? At HUD glasses? At projected 3D?
1401b wrote:
ur fun! =)

You're funner. :wink:


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27 Dec 2014, 10:26 pm

eric76 wrote:
If I remember correctly, Richard Feynman described his disgust with one field, I think psychology, for people in the field thinking that there is no need to repeat experiments because the results are already known.

Maybe you are referring to the following clip?



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28 Dec 2014, 1:30 am

Phew! There are too many of you going too fast in too many different directions for me to even read all the posts.

I'll try to stick to the general picture consistent with the thread title.



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28 Dec 2014, 2:18 am

Real science is good stuff... and I have always loved it. It is a discovery journey of finding out how things work with a real scientific method involving observation, hypothesis, experimentation, deduction, extrapolation, etc. that has led to all the wonderful technological benefits we currently enjoy.

All that is good. However, there is a false non-science that has inverted the method and good reputation of science to sell a religious ideology called Materialism. Science has been mauled, adulterated and raped in the service of this ideology. Science has been elevated from a tool to understand and conquer (subdue) the physical reality in which we live to a god that serves the egotistical ambitions of the High Priests of Materialism.

That's why there is "such huge veneration of science".



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28 Dec 2014, 3:19 am

Oldavid wrote:
Real science is good stuff... and I have always loved it. It is a discovery journey of finding out how things work with a real scientific method involving observation, hypothesis, experimentation, deduction, extrapolation, etc. that has led to all the wonderful technological benefits we currently enjoy.

All that is good. However, there is a false non-science that has inverted the method and good reputation of science to sell a religious ideology called Materialism. Science has been mauled, adulterated and raped in the service of this ideology. Science has been elevated from a tool to understand and conquer (subdue) the physical reality in which we live to a god that serves the egotistical ambitions of the High Priests of Materialism.

That's why there is "such huge veneration of science".
.....Geology? Evolution? Fossil record? Biology? Paleontology?


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28 Dec 2014, 3:35 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
Geology? Evolution? Fossil record? Biology? Paleontology?
Murdered.