Do you believe in God?

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Indeed. Money, ego, power over others...it's all the same. But I do have to question that "wandering from the faith" necessarily implies that the faith itself can not be evil. Especially as it was Paul who wrote it. Historically, before he personally reshaped Christianity it was quite egalitarian to women (and others).

In what way do you think Paul "reshaped" Christianity to be less egalitarian. I'm not saying you're right or wrong. Just curious as to what you mean.

Women had a big part of Jesus' ministry before Saul whose name became Paul.
Something's are not reported correctly... Such as Mary Magdalen .. She was outspoken business not the alleged prostitute.
I was raised in Orthodox Judaism.
There were arguments in the early church, just as there are today...in and out of church. In and off line.

signature ...Still too old to know it all

Yes

Hehe, people do tend to get their "Mary's confused, don't they? Yup, arguments haven't changed at all since then. Especially over words.

Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.
2 Timothy 2:14 NIV

Yup, thank you!

Hi Misery,

Rough week! But I have some time to respond to this now.

First of all, I do not claim to have all the answers on this topic. I doubt anyone on this earth does. It could be something that is just far beyond the comprehension of our small finite brains.

I used to think about this chicken or egg paradox even when I was a rabid anti-theist. What created that force that caused the universe? And where did that come from? And so forth and so forth.

Or in the case of Christianity, "Where did God come from?" "Has he always been around?" "Did He come from something else, or has he been the "defacto" for all existence eternally as Scripture highly suggests"

Eternal is a concept that is different from "immortal". Scripture says that mankind is immortal. We have souls or spirits that will live forever either in Heaven or Hell depending on whether or not we follow Jesus (to put it in very simple terms, at least).

BUT... we have a starting point... an origin, if you will. There was a time when we did not exist, and a time where that ceased.

However, eternal means that something has always been around. There never was a time when that certain thing was not around. At bare minimum, SOMETHING, at least IS eternal. According to my faith, I believe that is God.

We know this simply because we do exist. Something cannot possibly come from nothing. Even when they zap a laser into the void of space and neutrino particles come into existence, that is NOT coming from nothing. Because there IS a zero point energy that makes up the fabric of space-time. Some people call it dark matter and dark energy. But something is still there, though we can't perceive it with any equipment so far.

So let's say that God was not eternal and had a starting point. Well, still there would have to be something else that is eternal from whence and where God came from.

And the same paradox for non creationist string physicists. What created the big bang. What caused that force to come into play.

Their latest thing is called "M-theory", where our universe is essentially a 10 dimensional donut floating around in the 11th dimension along with perhaps an endless variety of other universes. When it collides into one of these other universes, it causes a massive inter dimensional combustion, or a big bang.

They say that the 11th dimension is actually incredibly microscopic in scope. However, this infinitesimally small point is interconnected to every single point of every particle in every part of spacetime. This is incredibly mind-blowing, but also gives more in favor of a God who can be everywhere at once. Maybe God is an 11th or 12th dimensional being, or maybe there are dimensions beyond that, which fit in the fingernail of our creator.

Physicists don't go beyond 11 dimensions, because that number in the math currently satisfies their theories and calculations. But going beyond that number would not invalidate their numbers either, but simply add to it. I'm sure they would add more dimensions if they saw the need.

Who knows?!? Everything I mentioned about "M-theory", and what contemporary physicists say is all speculation, and math on paper and computers. It still does not prove anything except showing plausibility, and giving us variables to test in real life. I don't know how possible it is to "test" some of these things are, though, or how we would even go about that.

From what I can tell, Big Bang theory, and "M-theory", do not disprove God. They actually don't even go against Scripture. God says, "let there be light", and what happens to light that ages and cools down? It downgrades to microwaves. Well scientists have known about the microwave background radiation for many decades now. It could be both a big bang brought about by God saying, "let there be light". What massive energy to cause this light to still be visible many thousands or billions, or whatever years later!

The concept of eternal God, Big Bang, and M-theory, can all be true and are not necessarily contradictory to each other.

Again, I don't know if I'm correct on any of this at all. I'm just a little speck of dirt on a wet rock hurtling through space. But it is all mind-blowing stuff to think about.

My ultimate belief is that God has always existed, and that there never was a time where he did not. That is supported in Scripture.

There is enough stupidity in the m-theory to power up Orion for a month's end.

First and foremost, it CANNOT be tested. In fact when I took string theory, the prof that taught it, told us that m is perhaps the greatest drop of diarrhea ever confounded upon modern physics.

IMHO, the idea of multiverses and m-theory (and even I would say regular string theory) are nothing more then jumps to avoid the problem of first cause and fine tune.

As Bernard Carr said, it is either God or the multiverse.

About a few years ago, the main proponents of the multiverse theory quietly shelved this ludicrous idea. Turned out that PLANCK only found cosmic dust, and not the nobel prizes and templeton awards that would be rolling out.

IMHO, I find atheism cold and meaningless. Perhaps even unsupported.

I just can't stop thinking of Komkolzgrad from the game Syberia when someone says to me that God does not exist etc.

High five if you know what I am referring to.

Yeah, funny thing is that even with M-theory, the question would still be there, "where did that 11 dimensional soup come from?"

What set everything into being anyway? At best, they only raise more questions.

Believe me, I wasn't too attached to the theory, but it sure makes for interesting sci fi plots.

What is this cosmic dust you are referring to?

Read it and laugh:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-tegma ... 76707.html

There is a tremendous misunderstanding about the meaning of thee word "faith." Unfortunately, this misuse can be found in theist and atheist alike.

I'm a little familiar with Lennox. Having been educated in formal logic *and* having attended a Christian university, that sort of argument makes my head spin. Both of these come from Mr. Lennox:

"Faith is not a leap in the dark; it’s the exact opposite. It’s a commitment based on evidence"

"[Faith is] That which produces belief, evidence and trust in it."

In other words, Faith creates its own evidence. That goes by another name; circular reasoning.

I have yet to see him actually present his evidence, btw. What he does present *always* falls to some grossly obvious fallacies.

He is simply giving an education the etymology of thee word faith. You can take it or leave it. I find that many skeptics, agnostics, and atheists like to re-write definitions.

In the end, I feel I have received sufficient evidence to support my faith through answered prayer, the unusual love support and concern of other genuine Christians, wisdom and understanding of various things in Scripture that only came about after prayer and meditation, changes in my own heart and personality throughout the years, and a genuine love for people I otherwise would not care for.

People generally write these off as coincidences or fantastical thinking of the individual. But how do we really know if that's the case?

I'm not worried about being wrong. If the atheists are right, then when I die, there will be no more thought process to anything, so it would not matter. If Edenthiel and the ancient Greeks are right, then I will return to that hyper spatial jelly of a perfect being, also from which there is no thought or hunger, or concerns of pain or this world.

If my faith is right, and I follow and love Jesus with all my heart, and am faithful to His leading, then there will be eternal love, peace, joy, and fellowship with our creator.

I have no incentive to worry over the arguments of atheists and antitheists. All I gotta focus on is loving God with all my heart, and loving my neighbor as I love myself. Ironically, Even atheists are my neighbors. As is everyone on this message thread.

Last edited by marcb0t on 06 Mar 2016, 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Amen!