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QFT
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26 Jul 2020, 3:49 pm

@Vermontsavant, I have a side question. Your user name says you are in Vermont, and I was assuming its an American state so I assumed you are an American, and Americans are mostly Protestant and Catholic. Yet, in your studies, you seem to be focused on Eastern Orthodox. So are your parents or grandparents from some of those other countries?



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26 Jul 2020, 3:56 pm

QFT wrote:
@Vermontsavant, I have a side question. Your user name says you are in Vermont, and I was assuming its an American state so I assumed you are an American, and Americans are mostly Protestant and Catholic. Yet, in your studies, you seem to be focused on Eastern Orthodox. So are your parents or grandparents from some of those other countries?
I lived in Vermont when I signed up for this site and for about 12 years,I live in Massachusetts now,where I'm from originally.

My mother was Irish and Father Danish,I like to read history and the local library for whatever reason has a lot of books on the Balkans.I just finished a book on Kosovo.


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26 Jul 2020, 4:38 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
QFT wrote:
@Vermontsavant, I have a side question. Your user name says you are in Vermont, and I was assuming its an American state so I assumed you are an American, and Americans are mostly Protestant and Catholic. Yet, in your studies, you seem to be focused on Eastern Orthodox. So are your parents or grandparents from some of those other countries?
I lived in Vermont when I signed up for this site and for about 12 years,I live in Massachusetts now,where I'm from originally.

My mother was Irish and Father Danish,I like to read history and the local library for whatever reason has a lot of books on the Balkans.I just finished a book on Kosovo.


I always assumed that Irish and Danish were either Protestant or Catholic. I didn't know Eastern Orthodoxy was prevalent there. But is it?



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26 Jul 2020, 5:04 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
As far as gnostics, you can discard them on the basis that they were condemned by the apostles. The verses in 1 John that talk about the "spirit of antichrist" that denies that "Jesus came in the flesh" is likely referring to gnostics because gnostics didn't believe Jesus had fleshy body but rather that his body was of a spiritual substance. And also the "doctrine of Nicolatians" that was referred negatively in the book of Revelation is also likely a reference to gnosticism.


Jesus was baptized by a gnostic; John the Baptist was a Mandaean (which was one of the gnostic faiths). The relationship between Gnostic Christians, gnosticism and the rest of Christianity is likely far more complicated than Pauline Christians have chosen to record.


Wait...what? John the Baptist was a gnostic? surely he was just part of the messianic essene cult of Judaism (the same group who were slaughtered by the Romans in Masada and who were responsible for the dead sea scrolls) which were heralding the coming of the messiah. Gnostics were early christians who came along long after Salome had poor old John's head served on a platter.



funeralxempire
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26 Jul 2020, 5:10 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
As far as gnostics, you can discard them on the basis that they were condemned by the apostles. The verses in 1 John that talk about the "spirit of antichrist" that denies that "Jesus came in the flesh" is likely referring to gnostics because gnostics didn't believe Jesus had fleshy body but rather that his body was of a spiritual substance. And also the "doctrine of Nicolatians" that was referred negatively in the book of Revelation is also likely a reference to gnosticism.


Jesus was baptized by a gnostic; John the Baptist was a Mandaean (which was one of the gnostic faiths). The relationship between Gnostic Christians, gnosticism and the rest of Christianity is likely far more complicated than Pauline Christians have chosen to record.


Wait...what? John the Baptist was a gnostic? surely he was just part of the messianic essene cult of Judaism (the same group who were slaughtered by the Romans in Masada and who were responsible for the dead sea scrolls) which were heralding the coming of the messiah. Gnostics were early christians who came along long after Salome had poor old John's head served on a platter.


He was a Mandaean, which was a gnostic religion.

Gnostic Christians weren't the only gnostic group so your post doesn't make enough sense to respond more thoroughly to.


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26 Jul 2020, 5:10 pm

QFT wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
QFT wrote:
@Vermontsavant, I have a side question. Your user name says you are in Vermont, and I was assuming its an American state so I assumed you are an American, and Americans are mostly Protestant and Catholic. Yet, in your studies, you seem to be focused on Eastern Orthodox. So are your parents or grandparents from some of those other countries?
I lived in Vermont when I signed up for this site and for about 12 years,I live in Massachusetts now,where I'm from originally.

My mother was Irish and Father Danish,I like to read history and the local library for whatever reason has a lot of books on the Balkans.I just finished a book on Kosovo.


I always assumed that Irish and Danish were either Protestant or Catholic. I didn't know Eastern Orthodoxy was prevalent there. But is it?


Danes are mostly Protestant, Irish are mostly Catholic, except in the north which is famously divided between the Protestant majority and the Catholic minority.

VermontSavant just took to Eastern Orthodoxy like an aspie "special interest". And there are cities in the US with sizable Eastern Orthodox populations due to immigration from eastern Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Ukrainians, Russians, and Greeks, moving to Boston or NYC, or Chicago.



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26 Jul 2020, 5:16 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
As far as gnostics, you can discard them on the basis that they were condemned by the apostles. The verses in 1 John that talk about the "spirit of antichrist" that denies that "Jesus came in the flesh" is likely referring to gnostics because gnostics didn't believe Jesus had fleshy body but rather that his body was of a spiritual substance. And also the "doctrine of Nicolatians" that was referred negatively in the book of Revelation is also likely a reference to gnosticism.


Jesus was baptized by a gnostic; John the Baptist was a Mandaean (which was one of the gnostic faiths). The relationship between Gnostic Christians, gnosticism and the rest of Christianity is likely far more complicated than Pauline Christians have chosen to record.


Wait...what? John the Baptist was a gnostic? surely he was just part of the messianic essene cult of Judaism (the same group who were slaughtered by the Romans in Masada and who were responsible for the dead sea scrolls) which were heralding the coming of the messiah. Gnostics were early christians who came along long after Salome had poor old John's head served on a platter.


He was a Mandaean, which was a gnostic religion.

Gnostic Christians weren't the only gnostic group so your post doesn't make enough sense to respond more thoroughly to.

What are you talking about? Gnosticism is a type of Christianity. You cant have been a sub type of Christian before and during the lifetime of Christ. That would be like someone being in the "Never Trumper" faction of the GOP back in the 1840's, prior to the formation of the Republican party itself.



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26 Jul 2020, 5:19 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
As far as gnostics, you can discard them on the basis that they were condemned by the apostles. The verses in 1 John that talk about the "spirit of antichrist" that denies that "Jesus came in the flesh" is likely referring to gnostics because gnostics didn't believe Jesus had fleshy body but rather that his body was of a spiritual substance. And also the "doctrine of Nicolatians" that was referred negatively in the book of Revelation is also likely a reference to gnosticism.


Jesus was baptized by a gnostic; John the Baptist was a Mandaean (which was one of the gnostic faiths). The relationship between Gnostic Christians, gnosticism and the rest of Christianity is likely far more complicated than Pauline Christians have chosen to record.


Wait...what? John the Baptist was a gnostic? surely he was just part of the messianic essene cult of Judaism (the same group who were slaughtered by the Romans in Masada and who were responsible for the dead sea scrolls) which were heralding the coming of the messiah. Gnostics were early christians who came along long after Salome had poor old John's head served on a platter.


He was a Mandaean, which was a gnostic religion.

Gnostic Christians weren't the only gnostic group so your post doesn't make enough sense to respond more thoroughly to.


Probably a semantics thing, the Mandeans are a judaic cult, they called their priests rabbis. The Mandeaens are actually the surviving remnants of the Nasarene sect of the essenes to which both Yeshua (Essene Jesus) and John the Baptist belonged. So I am correct to point out that after Masada the remaining Essenes who weren't killed off by the Romans split off into Judaic cults. Calling John the baptist a gnostic is therefore a little misleading.



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26 Jul 2020, 5:25 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
As far as gnostics, you can discard them on the basis that they were condemned by the apostles. The verses in 1 John that talk about the "spirit of antichrist" that denies that "Jesus came in the flesh" is likely referring to gnostics because gnostics didn't believe Jesus had fleshy body but rather that his body was of a spiritual substance. And also the "doctrine of Nicolatians" that was referred negatively in the book of Revelation is also likely a reference to gnosticism.


Jesus was baptized by a gnostic; John the Baptist was a Mandaean (which was one of the gnostic faiths). The relationship between Gnostic Christians, gnosticism and the rest of Christianity is likely far more complicated than Pauline Christians have chosen to record.


Wait...what? John the Baptist was a gnostic? surely he was just part of the messianic essene cult of Judaism (the same group who were slaughtered by the Romans in Masada and who were responsible for the dead sea scrolls) which were heralding the coming of the messiah. Gnostics were early christians who came along long after Salome had poor old John's head served on a platter.


He was a Mandaean, which was a gnostic religion.

Gnostic Christians weren't the only gnostic group so your post doesn't make enough sense to respond more thoroughly to.

What are you talking about? Gnosticism is a type of Christianity. You cant have been a sub type of Christian before and during the lifetime of Christ. That would be like someone being in the "Never Trumper" faction of the GOP back in the 1840's, prior to the formation of the Republican party itself.


Gnosticism is a certain spiritual philosophy. I think its possible to talk about spirituality -- including that particular brand -- without including Jesus into the discussion. In this case it won't be a form of Christianity since Christianity, by definition, has to include Jesus one way or the other.



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26 Jul 2020, 5:28 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
As far as gnostics, you can discard them on the basis that they were condemned by the apostles. The verses in 1 John that talk about the "spirit of antichrist" that denies that "Jesus came in the flesh" is likely referring to gnostics because gnostics didn't believe Jesus had fleshy body but rather that his body was of a spiritual substance. And also the "doctrine of Nicolatians" that was referred negatively in the book of Revelation is also likely a reference to gnosticism.


Jesus was baptized by a gnostic; John the Baptist was a Mandaean (which was one of the gnostic faiths). The relationship between Gnostic Christians, gnosticism and the rest of Christianity is likely far more complicated than Pauline Christians have chosen to record.


Wait...what? John the Baptist was a gnostic? surely he was just part of the messianic essene cult of Judaism (the same group who were slaughtered by the Romans in Masada and who were responsible for the dead sea scrolls) which were heralding the coming of the messiah. Gnostics were early christians who came along long after Salome had poor old John's head served on a platter.


He was a Mandaean, which was a gnostic religion.

Gnostic Christians weren't the only gnostic group so your post doesn't make enough sense to respond more thoroughly to.


Probably a semantics thing, the Mandeans are a judaic cult, they called their priests rabbis. The Mandeaens are actually the surviving remnants of the Nasarene sect of the essenes to which both Yeshua (Essene Jesus) and John the Baptist belonged. So I am correct to point out that after Masada the remaining Essenes who weren't killed off by the Romans split off into Judaic cults. Calling John the baptist a gnostic is therefore a little misleading.


That sounds interesting. Do you think Jews that were killed in Masada believed in Jesus? And do you think the remnant Mandeans continued throughout the senturies as some underground sects? Are there differences between Mandeans and Essenes?



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26 Jul 2020, 5:36 pm

QFT wrote:
That sounds interesting. Do you think Jews that were killed in Masada believed in Jesus? And do you think the remnant Mandeans continued throughout the senturies as some underground sects? Are there differences between Mandeans and Essenes?


The Essenes believed in a messiah or prophet who would come to fulfill their scriptures. Those who died in Masada would not know him by jesus or Yeshua but they were expecting him.

The Mandeans are a remnant of the essenes and follow the messianic teaching of John the Baptist. The essenes were essentially (ironically rooted to the word essene) messianic jews. When orthodox jews wouldn't listen to the teachings then Yeshua (Jesus) began converting gentiles to their faith (like Romans) causing subversion which is probably why Pontious Pilate had no choice but to have him crucified.



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26 Jul 2020, 5:44 pm

cyberdad wrote:
The Essenes believed in a messiah or prophet who would come to fulfill their scriptures. Those who died in Masada would not know him by jesus or Yeshua but they were expecting him.


As far as the belief in "future" Messiah, thats what most Jews do anyway. What I was specifically asking is whether Essenes believed in Jesus, and the reason I was asking that is because you mentioned John the Baptist was Essene, and he clearly did. So I was wondering how many other Essenes did he influence.



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26 Jul 2020, 5:47 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
What are you talking about? Gnosticism is a type of Christianity. You cant have been a sub type of Christian before and during the lifetime of Christ. That would be like someone being in the "Never Trumper" faction of the GOP back in the 1840's, prior to the formation of the Republican party itself.


Early mainstream Christians treated all gnostics as heretical Christians but they weren't correct then and that understanding is still not correct now.


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If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.


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26 Jul 2020, 5:50 pm

QFT wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
The Essenes believed in a messiah or prophet who would come to fulfill their scriptures. Those who died in Masada would not know him by jesus or Yeshua but they were expecting him.


As far as the belief in "future" Messiah, thats what most Jews do anyway. What I was specifically asking is whether Essenes believed in Jesus, and the reason I was asking that is because you mentioned John the Baptist was Essene, and he clearly did. So I was wondering how many other Essenes did he influence.


The history at this period is really murky, certainly the Mandeans were influenced and follow him and there is evidence that JTB also influenced almost all sects of modern christianity (not just Baptism but also in terms of evangalism).



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26 Jul 2020, 5:51 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
What are you talking about? Gnosticism is a type of Christianity. You cant have been a sub type of Christian before and during the lifetime of Christ. That would be like someone being in the "Never Trumper" faction of the GOP back in the 1840's, prior to the formation of the Republican party itself.


Early mainstream Christians treated all gnostics as heretical Christians but they weren't correct then and that understanding is still not correct now.


By "early Christians" you mean 3-rd century ones? I thought you said in the earlier reply that the 1-st century early Christians were themselves influenced by gnostics?



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26 Jul 2020, 5:52 pm

cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
QFT wrote:
As far as gnostics, you can discard them on the basis that they were condemned by the apostles. The verses in 1 John that talk about the "spirit of antichrist" that denies that "Jesus came in the flesh" is likely referring to gnostics because gnostics didn't believe Jesus had fleshy body but rather that his body was of a spiritual substance. And also the "doctrine of Nicolatians" that was referred negatively in the book of Revelation is also likely a reference to gnosticism.


Jesus was baptized by a gnostic; John the Baptist was a Mandaean (which was one of the gnostic faiths). The relationship between Gnostic Christians, gnosticism and the rest of Christianity is likely far more complicated than Pauline Christians have chosen to record.


Wait...what? John the Baptist was a gnostic? surely he was just part of the messianic essene cult of Judaism (the same group who were slaughtered by the Romans in Masada and who were responsible for the dead sea scrolls) which were heralding the coming of the messiah. Gnostics were early christians who came along long after Salome had poor old John's head served on a platter.


He was a Mandaean, which was a gnostic religion.

Gnostic Christians weren't the only gnostic group so your post doesn't make enough sense to respond more thoroughly to.


Probably a semantics thing, the Mandeans are a judaic cult, they called their priests rabbis. The Mandeaens are actually the surviving remnants of the Nasarene sect of the essenes to which both Yeshua (Essene Jesus) and John the Baptist belonged. So I am correct to point out that after Masada the remaining Essenes who weren't killed off by the Romans split off into Judaic cults. Calling John the baptist a gnostic is therefore a little misleading.


Yahia-Yohanna (John the Baptist) is held up as their greatest prophet, so no, it's not misleading just because you've accepting the misleading interpretation that Christians have spread.


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The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.
If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. —Malcolm X
Just a reminder: under international law, an occupying power has no right of self-defense, and those who are occupied have the right and duty to liberate themselves by any means possible.