Plain racist

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Kraichgauer
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01 Feb 2022, 10:52 pm

txfz1 wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

I think to be fair to Biden, the whole democrat party made a decision in unison to filibuster Janice Brown's nomination by Bush. They had their reasons and it was political. It has nothing to do with Biden wanting to shaft black people because he's racist (as some here are trying to insinuate) and covering it up.

All politicians (whether left or right) do things and then reverse their policies based on strategic/political imperatives, That's why they are called politicians.

No, Biden has a racist past and I am amazed how the tolerant left is willing to overlook it, including the amoral dishonesty of just being a politician. If it was about glass ceilings, he would have voted yay. Hiring someone based on race and gender is illegal, racist, and sexist.

So... Biden is a racist for wanting to make the Supreme Court more racially inclusive?

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Dox47
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01 Feb 2022, 11:00 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

So... Biden is a racist for wanting to make the Supreme Court more racially inclusive?

Yes, as he's refusing to consider certain potential justices solely on the basis of their race.

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Dox47
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01 Feb 2022, 11:01 pm

DW_a_mom wrote:

So, to me as a woman, to suggest we can't have both a meritorious choice AND a black female feels both racist and misogynistic.

Good thing no one has actually said that then.

DW_a_mom wrote:

While I would prefer a president not limit himself in what seems to be a clear form of pandering, it isn't like the promise means he'll be putting a "lesser" candidate onto the court.

But we'll never really know, will we?

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Kraichgauer
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01 Feb 2022, 11:06 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

So... Biden is a racist for wanting to make the Supreme Court more racially inclusive?

Yes, as he's refusing to consider certain potential justices solely on the basis of their race.

How do you know that black woman really wouldn't be the most qualified?

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Brictoria
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01 Feb 2022, 11:14 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

txfz1 wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

So... Biden is a racist for wanting to make the Supreme Court more racially inclusive?

No. He is a racist for teating a person's race as more important than their ability.

Had he said he was picking the "best person" for the role, then picked a "black female", no-one would have had an issue, as the person was picked (presumably) for their ability and people would accept them as the "best person" for the role.

Instead he stated he was picking a "black female" fo the role, meaning people will legitimately question whether the person selected was the "best person for the role", or merely a token offering to appease certain racial\racist groups and overlooking better qualified (but of the "wrong" race\sex) alternatives, which will follow through to people's views on the person's actions\rulings (as well as leaving the person selected in a position of not knowing whether their ability was what "earned" them the position, or if they are merely a "token" choice selected to "tick boxes").

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01 Feb 2022, 11:34 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

So... Biden is a racist for wanting to make the Supreme Court more racially inclusive?

Yes, as he's refusing to consider certain potential justices solely on the basis of their race.

How do you know that black woman really wouldn't be the most qualified?

How would you know if they were?

By eliminating any other option other in favor of the person's race\sex, you have taken away the ability for the person making the choice to compare the favoured subset of options from those outside it - There's no chance they will be selected, so no reason to comapre ability with them and perhaps find someone more qualified than those in the favoured subset.

Perhaps there is an Asian female judge who is better qualified than the "black female" judges - by stating you will only select a "black female" judge, you have removed the ability to make such a comparrison between that person and the "select" subset, and so would not be able to confirm you had picked the "most qualified" person... Or if you were to make the comparison, by limiting selection to a "black female" judge, you would be aware that you would not be selecting the most qualified person.

By limiting a selection to a certain subset of a larger group, you greatly limit the possibility of selecting the "most qualified" person - the smaller the subset, the lower probability that the "most qualified" person will be an option... There is still a possibility that the person selected is the "most qualified", but no-one will know for sure, and so there will be the continued question as to whether the person selected was truely worthy of the position, of if they are merely a box-ticking token selection, which is unfair on the person who is eventually selected.

Dox47
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01 Feb 2022, 11:37 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

So... Biden is a racist for wanting to make the Supreme Court more racially inclusive?

Yes, as he's refusing to consider certain potential justices solely on the basis of their race.

How do you know that black woman really wouldn't be the most qualified?

Quoted to note the non-sequitur. Brictoria answered the question perfectly already, and not for the first time.

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Dox47
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01 Feb 2022, 11:57 pm

txfz1 wrote:

No, Biden has a racist past and I am amazed how the tolerant left is willing to overlook it, including the amoral dishonesty of just being a politician. I

That's been one of the weirder elements of the whole Biden candidacy and election, that so much of his racial baggage has been just straight up memory holed, and by people who are usually the most unforgiving of outrage archeologists as well. I can even understand the argument to suck it up and vote for him to get rid of Trump, I really do, but I take offense at the people who try and pretend that this stuff never happened, that's just insulting.

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DW_a_mom
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01 Feb 2022, 11:58 pm

Biden made a promise during the height of racial unrest and turbulence, a time during which a community of people asked to be prioritized in a way they never have been. What he did was tell them he was willing to prioritize them, and the black thought leaders I've followed felt it was about time.

The promise may be more performative than substantive when it comes to fixing multiple centuries of inequality, but I know at least one black female lawyer who felt the promise would make a world of difference to many, many MANY black women like herself. To her, this MEANS something.

Those of us who don't sit in the shoes of someone like her can't pretend to understand.

The reality is that we can't even the playing field without prioritizing those stuck in the gopher holes. Some dirt is going to have to be moved around.

To achieve equality a few moves are going to have to be made that aren't actually equal. The gopher holes need to get filled in.

Pretending we can be blind to race and all past ills will be resolved is naive. It isn't going to work that way. Some sort of reparation is going to be required. Biden's promise is basically a form of reparation. Maybe not ideal, the optics aren't great, but he made a promise and he's keeping it.

(you all know that the more you go off in one direction, the stronger the need I'll feel to pull you in another, right? It's less about winning than putting weight onto factors I don't see being given enough)

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Last edited by DW_a_mom on 02 Feb 2022, 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

DW_a_mom
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02 Feb 2022, 12:03 am

Dox47 wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

So, to me as a woman, to suggest we can't have both a meritorious choice AND a black female feels both racist and misogynistic.

Good thing no one has actually said that then.

If A leads to B and A is true, then so must B be.

No one said it. But I read the posts, and I felt it.

People can't debate the whole overlooked meritocracy thing in this context without implying a black woman won't have the desired level of merit.

As I pointed out, there is no obvious "best" candidate. There is no obvious someone being shoved aside. This isn't like a Vice President biding their time to take on the mantel of the president they once served. None of us have a list of who would might be chosen if the specification had not been made. So implying that merit is being ignored is implying that the very broad field of meritorious candidates does not include black women.

I don't see how you all are missing that.

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Brictoria
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02 Feb 2022, 12:30 am

txfz1 wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

No, Biden has a racist past and I am amazed how the tolerant left is willing to overlook it, including the amoral dishonesty of just being a politician.

Considering the number of members on this site from the left who throw around racial slurs (this thread had quite a few before the moderators were forced to clean it up, for example), it's not THAT surprising...

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02 Feb 2022, 12:35 am

DW_a_mom wrote:

I don't see how you all are missing that.

Because we're not torturing logic to force it to support our own preconceived ideals?

I also think you're seriously underestimating the backlash damage that racial set asides engender, people who'd never have had any reason to doubt the academic or professional accomplishments of minorities can't just forget that they know those people might have been held to a lower standard, and neither can the people who supposedly benefit from said programs. It's not an uncommon lament from black intellectuals, that they took advantage of an affirmative action program in their youth because the leg up sounded good, but then came to really resent the knowledge that they'd never truly know if they would have made it without the set aside.

Can you honestly answer the famous surgeon/pilot question? That you'd feel no qualms at all being flown by a black pilot or operated on by a black surgeon if you knew that those fields practiced affirmative action? Not even the slightest twinge?

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DW_a_mom
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02 Feb 2022, 12:55 am

Dox47 wrote:

DW_a_mom wrote:

I don't see how you all are missing that.

I also think you're seriously underestimating the backlash damage that racial set asides engender

More leaving it off because it wasn't relevant to the point I was making.

I'm not trying to claim that what Biden did was wise. I know it wasn't, for the simple reality of the backlash. But I felt like this thread was missing some mitigating points. Not offsetting, but mitigating.

And I am offended by the tone of the meritocracy discussion. That stuff is subtle, but I've been subjected to it as a woman most of my life, I am in a profession with a lot of woman but far fewer at the upper echelons, and the implication is clear to the person on the other end of it.

Quote:

Can you honestly answer the famous surgeon/pilot question? That you'd feel no qualms at all being flown by a black pilot or operated on by a black surgeon if you knew that those fields practiced affirmative action? Not even the slightest twinge?

No qualms. One of the firms I used to work for applied affirmative action with respect to black applicants (under represented in my field, still). It only goes as far as the foot in the door and maybe a little help navigating the start. They still have to walk through that door, acquire the skills, and obtain professional certification on the same standards applied to all professionals in the field.

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cyberdad
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02 Feb 2022, 1:08 am

txfz1 wrote:

cyberdad wrote:

I am not disputing Biden has racist tendencies (the democrat president Lyndon Johnson who ended Jim crow laws by signing the civil rights act was notorious for his negative comments about black people).

However, he has fulfilled a promise to black democrat voters so he's meeting their needs and doing his job.

Kraichgauer
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02 Feb 2022, 1:49 am

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Dox47 wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

So... Biden is a racist for wanting to make the Supreme Court more racially inclusive?

Yes, as he's refusing to consider certain potential justices solely on the basis of their race.

How do you know that black woman really wouldn't be the most qualified?

Quoted to note the non-sequitur. Brictoria answered the question perfectly already, and not for the first time.

I think this is more about running down Biden than anything else. The hill you're fighting on to do it has been used for racism in the past.

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Dox47
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02 Feb 2022, 2:06 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

I think this is more about running down Biden than anything else.

Kraichgauer wrote:

The hill you're fighting on to do it has been used for racism in the past.

Wait, you're literally arguing for picking someone based on their race and gender and not their underlying qualifications, and you are accusing me of using an argument that racists have used in the past? Maybe roll that one around in your head a few more times and see if you can spot the issue.

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