What is wrong with Political Correctness in some cases?

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magz
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26 Apr 2022, 4:10 am

cyberdad wrote:
Gender studies focus more on cultural gender where sex can be construed in the context of intimacy. It just so happens that intersex, bisexual people all like intimacy too.
It happens that intimacy is much more than reproduction, too.
What I'm trying to say is, reproduction in humans is overwhelmingly binary. Other aspects of life don't have to be.

As we're past the times when an average woman had to give 5 births to keep the population stable, we can make our lives not as much about reproduction as it used to be 1000 years ago.


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26 Apr 2022, 4:19 am

magz wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Gender studies focus more on cultural gender where sex can be construed in the context of intimacy. It just so happens that intersex, bisexual people all like intimacy too.
It happens that intimacy is much more than reproduction, too.
What I'm trying to say is, reproduction in humans is overwhelmingly binary. Other aspects of life don't have to.

As we're past the times when an average woman had to give 5 births to keep the population stable, we can make our lives not as much about reproduction as it used to be 1000 years ago.


Not true, intersex men (trans male-female) and gay women can have children



magz
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26 Apr 2022, 4:32 am

cyberdad wrote:
Not true, intersex men (trans male-female) and gay women can have children
What "not confirmed"? One of them produces sperm, the other gets pregnant. That is binary.
What they feel and how they present in the society is not binary.
That's exactly what I say about the separation of reproductive and social layers. They have different nature.


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The_Walrus
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26 Apr 2022, 4:57 am

magz wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
AngelRho wrote:

Sex, though, is entirely biological. It's entirely genetic. XX or XY under ordinary situations, with variances that occasionally happen outside the norm. And since this something we can know from nature, it's not a simple matter of opinion. It exists apart from the mind, therefore it is an objective reality.

I'm sorry but this is not biologically accurate.

Sex is not entirely genetic, it's much more complicated than that. It isn't objective, either, there are judgement calls to be made. And moreover, it's rather silly to pretend that our assessment of other people's sex is based on whether they have a Y chromosome (or more accurately, whether they have a functioning copy of SRY). Unless you're literally working in a genetics laboratory, you use sexual characteristics to try to judge someone's sex. You can, in some circumstances, use primary characteristics (if you can see their genitals, or if they are clearly pregnant), but it will be much more common to use secondary characteristics. And if you're using secondary characteristics, well, those aren't necessarily genetically determined. And suddenly we have a version of sex which does not exist independently of the human mind.
Ahem... sex is about ability to make babies. In humans, some can produce sperm and some can get pregnant. Sometimes neither, very rarely both. That's biology. Sexual reproduction.
What you are talking about (guessing weather someone you meet on a street is male or female to use the right pronouns etc.) is gender.

You’ve now given a different definition to AngelRho, about the type of gametes produced.

So, we have a person with XX chromosomes who has testes and produces sperm. AngelRho apparently says “this person is objectively female”. You say “this person is objectively male”. Clearly this isn’t truly objective, there are judgement calls being made.



magz
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26 Apr 2022, 5:07 am

Judgement calls are on language. Always, because language is arbitrary on its grouping together and separating ideas. That's why some cultural differences can be seen in linguistic differences.
There are many aspects of what we consider "male" and "female". Some are binary. Some not.
So, we need subtler language to discuss it on subtler levels.


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26 Apr 2022, 5:13 am

magz wrote:
Judgement calls are on language. Always, because language is arbitrary on its grouping together and separating ideas. That's why some cultural differences can be seen in linguistic differences.
There are many aspects of what we consider "male" and "female". Some are binary. Some not.
So, we need subtler language to discuss it on subtler levels.


We are conditioned from a young age to think of gender/sexuality in simple binary terms,

A simple example where this will no longer apply is when a male who chooses to clone a cell from himself which is converted to an embryo and implanted in a womb, The child is 100% the mans.



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26 Apr 2022, 5:13 am

AngelRho wrote:
It is accurate and it is objective.

I don’t deny that subjective definitions of sex can be invented through wishful thinking, but I prefer an outlook that’s less distorted by emotion.

Your personal views don’t become objective simply because you say they do.

Your ideas about sex are not scientific, and are driven by emotion rather than reason.

Reality exists independently of your subjective views. Your perceptions of the world are not objective, they are subjective. That is true for everyone, of course. Nobody’s ideas about sex are entirely detached from subjectivity. But yours are out of step with the scientific consensus, which is that the matter is much more complicated than you’d like it to be. The more you look at it, the more complicated it gets. Sex can be understood as chromosomal, genetic, hormonal, gonadal, or gametic, and those do not necessarily align with each other - and that’s without getting into the social aspects.

If a woman has her ovaries removed, does she stop being female?

If a man loses his penis, does he stop being male?

If you found out that you have no Y chromosome, would you stop considering yourself male?

None of these questions have objective answers. They only reveal our personal preferences.



magz
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26 Apr 2022, 6:06 am

cyberdad wrote:
A simple example where this will no longer apply is when a male who chooses to clone a cell from himself which is converted to an embryo and implanted in a womb, The child is 100% the mans.
At this moment, it is sci-fi. Cloning a random cell turned out quite problematic and artificial wombs are not yet fully functional. DNA is just one aspect of reproduction, gestation in a living female is still required in the process. Off-topic: that's one of major challenges for the idea of cloning mammoths back to life.
Of course, that may change some day.
Still, natural reproduction is binary in humans and other aspects of sex/gender don't have to be. That's why I believe we should understand the differences between these layers.


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AngelRho
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26 Apr 2022, 6:54 am

The_Walrus wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
It is accurate and it is objective.

I don’t deny that subjective definitions of sex can be invented through wishful thinking, but I prefer an outlook that’s less distorted by emotion.

Your personal views don’t become objective simply because you say they do.

Your ideas about sex are not scientific, and are driven by emotion rather than reason.

Either someone has a Y chromosome or someone doesn’t. I’m open to debate on what it means to have trisomy X, Turner’s, XYY, and so on. But normally we are either XX or XY. Sex is either binary or it’s a genetic disorder that more or less causes problems if it’s even obvious. Anything else is made-up fantasy.

I don’t dispute that some males don’t look like males. I don’t dispute that there are other issues that blur the outward appearance of sex. I don’t dispute that some men would rather be women. But objectively speaking, genetics determines sex.



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26 Apr 2022, 7:46 am

Genetics determine sex, or intersex, almost universally.

Gender, of course, is another matter. One's sex could be eminently relevant to one's gender; or it could be totally irrelevant.

I'm a cis-male----so my sex correlates with my gender.

If I'm a trans male, I would feel like there is little correlation between my birth sex and my gender.

I've known women who thought of themselves as women. and who are heterosexual.....who were more masculine than I am. And I'm at least a somewhat masculine man.



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26 Apr 2022, 8:25 am

JUST A QUICK NOTE:

IT'S WELL WORTH IT AGAIN
TO PURSUE MORE RESOURCES
THAN OPINIONS ON 'THE WRONG
PLANET' ABOUT THE VAST COMPLEXITIES

OF WHAT MAKES THE SPECTRUM OF HUMAN SEX AND GENDER.

DO NOTE: BINARY MEANS TWO CATEGORIES; NOT 'ALMOST' TWO.

Anyway, Folks Here Have already Noted that 'Human Sex' is too Complex
to Understand When the Science of it is Actually Presented; Perhaps We Have More

Folks in the Discussion Now Who Can Make Use of a More Reliable Source Like 'Scientific American.'

i Don't Have A Degree in Biology; Yet At Least my Degrees in Anthropology, Social Sciences Interdisciplinary,
And Health Science, Provide an Ability to Understand the Science of the 'Human Sex' Related Article Below;

Yes, Not all Folks Are Fortunate Enough to Have An Education That Provides the Ability to Understand
the Science of it; And This Is Why We Have Laws to Protect the Marginalized; Not Everyone Has the

'Hardware
And Software'

to Understand
the Complexity
of What makes the
Entire Spectrum of Humanity Tick;

As Of Course That is Part of the Spectrum of Humanity too.

Quote:
"Contrary to popular belief, scientific research helps us better understand the unique and real transgender experience. Specifically, through three subjects: (1) genetics, (2) neurobiology and (3) endocrinology. So, hold onto your parts, whatever they may be. It’s time for “the talk.”


BIOLOGICAL SEX: HOW YOU GET IT
Nearly everyone in middle school biology learned that if you’ve got XX chromosomes, you’re a female; if you’ve got XY, you’re a male. This tired simplification is great for teaching the importance of chromosomes but betrays the true nature of biological sex. The popular belief that your sex arises only from your chromosomal makeup is wrong. The truth is, your biological sex isn’t carved in stone, but a living system with the potential for change.
Why? Because biological sex is far more complicated than XX or XY (or XXY, or just X). XX individuals could present with male gonads. XY individuals can have ovaries. How? Through a set of complex genetic signals that, in the course of a human’s development, begins with a small group of cells called the bipotential primordium and a gene called SRY.
A newly fertilized embryo initially develops without any indication of its sex. At around five weeks, a group of cells clump together to form the bipotential primordium. These cells are neither male nor female but have the potential to turn into testes, ovaries or neither. After the primordium forms, SRY—a gene on the Y chromosome discovered in 1990, thanks to the participation of intersex XX males and XY females—might be activated.*
Though it is still not fully understood, we know SRY plays a role in pushing the primordium toward male gonads. But SRY is not a simple on/off switch, it’s a precisely timed start signal, the first chord of the “male gonad” symphony. A group of cells (instrument sections) must all express SRY (notes of the chord), at the right time (conductor?). Without that first chord, the embryo will play a different symphony: female gonads, or something in between.

And there’s more! While brief and coordinated SRY-activation initiates the process of male-sex differentiation, genes like DMRT1 and FOXL2 maintain certain sexual characteristics during adulthood. If these genes stop functioning, gonads can change and exhibit characteristics of the opposite sex. Without these players constantly active, certain components of your biological sex can change.
There’s still more! SRY, DMRT1, and FOXL2 aren’t directly involved with other aspects of biological sex. Secondary sex characteristics—penis, vagina, appearance, behavior—arise later, from hormones, environment, experience, and genes interacting. To explore this, we move from the body to the brain, where biology becomes behavior.
THE BRAIN: WHERE STUFF GETS “MADE UP”

When the biology gets too complicated, some point to differences between brains of males and females as proof of the sexual binary. But a half century of empirical research has repeatedly challenged the idea that brain biology is simply XY = male brain or XX = female brain. In other words, there is no such thing as “the male brain” or “the female brain.” This is not to say that there are no observable differences. Certain brain characteristics can be sexually dimorphic: observable average differences across males and females. But like biological sex, pointing to “brain sex” as the explanation for these differences is wrong and hinders scientific research.
Let’s just take the most famous example of sexual dimorphism in the brain: the sexually dimorphic nucleus of the preoptic area (sdnPOA). This tiny brain area with a disproportionately sized name is slightly larger in males than in females. But it’s unclear if that size difference indicates distinctly wired sdnPOAs in males versus females, or if—as with the bipotential primordium—the same wiring is functionally weighted toward opposite ends of a spectrum. Throw in the observation that the sdnPOA in gay men is closer to that of straight females than straight males, and the idea of “the male brain” falls apart.

Trying to link sex, sex chromosomes and sexual dimorphism is also useless for understanding other brain properties. The hormone vasopressin is dimorphic but is linked to both behavioral differences and similarities across sex. Simply put, the idea of a sexual binary isn’t scientifically useful, and nowhere is this more obvious than in the brain. It also happens that transgender people have the brains to prove it.
It’s easy to see sexual dimorphisms and conclude that the brain is binary; easy, but wrong. Thanks to the participation of trans people in research, we have expanded our understanding of how brain structure, sex and gender interact. For some properties like brain volume and connectivity, trans people possessed values in between those typical of cisgender males and females, both before and after transitioning. Another study found that for certain brain regions, trans individuals appeared similar to cis-individuals with the same gender identity. In that same study, researchers found specific areas of the brain where trans people seemed closer to those with the same assigned sex at birth. Other researchers discovered that trans people have unique structural differences from cis-individuals.

THE BODY AND THE BRAIN AND THE HORMONES BETWIXT
As if the brain and body weren’t complicated enough, another biological factor influences the expression of biological sex in an individual: hormones. Anyone who has gone through puberty has felt the power of hormones firsthand. But like all things biology, hormones cannot be limited to the pubescent idea of “estrogen = female and testosterone = male.”
For one thing, all humans possess levels of estrogen, progesterone and testosterone with sex differences not as prominent as is popularly thought. During infancy and prepubescence, these hormones sit in a bipotential range, with no marked sex differences. Through puberty, certain sex hormones like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone become weighted toward one end of a spectrum. But in developed adults, estrogen and progesterone levels are on average similar between males and nonpregnant females. And while testosterone exhibits the largest difference between adult males and females, heritability studies have found that genetics (X vs. Y) only explains about 56 percent of an individual’s testosterone, suggesting many other influences on hormones. Furthermore, measurements of sex hormones levels in any one individual wildly vary across the range of “average” values regardless of how close or spread apart you take the measurements. The binary sex model not only insufficiently predicts the presence of hormones but is useless in describing factors that influence them.

Environmental, social and behavioral factors also influence hormones in both males and females, complicating the idea that hormones determine sex. Progesterone changes in response to typically male-coded social situations that involve dominance and competition. Estrogen, typically linked to feminine-coded behavior, also plays a role in masculine-coded dominance/power social scenarios. Though testosterone levels are different between males and females on average, many external factors can change these levels, such as whether or not a person is raising a child. Differing testosterone levels in both men and women can predict certain parenting behaviors. Even the content of a sexual fantasy can change testosterone levels. The fact is, behavior and environment—like cultural gender norms and expectations—influence sex-related hormones, and the biology of the body and brain itself.

SCIENCE AND SOCIETY: BETTER TOGETHER
While this is a small overview, the science is clear and conclusive: sex is not binary, transgender people are real. It is time that we acknowledge this. Defining a person’s sex identity using decontextualized “facts” is unscientific and dehumanizing. The trans experience provides essential insights into the science of sex and scientifically demonstrates that uncommon and atypical phenomena are vital for a successful living system. Even the scientific endeavor itself is quantifiably better when it is more inclusive and diverse. So, no matter what a pundit, politician or internet troll may say, trans people are an indispensable part of our living reality.
Transgender humans represent the complexity and diversity that are fundamental features of life, evolution and nature itself. That is a fact."


https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/


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26 Apr 2022, 8:41 am

As long as I'm treated decently, I really don't care what a person calls him/her/their self.

I do feel like there is an over-emphasis on "gender norms." A man doesn't have to be macho in order to be a man; nor does a woman have to be fluffy-feminine in order to be a woman.



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26 Apr 2022, 8:56 am

AngelRho wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
It is accurate and it is objective.

I don’t deny that subjective definitions of sex can be invented through wishful thinking, but I prefer an outlook that’s less distorted by emotion.

Your personal views don’t become objective simply because you say they do.

Your ideas about sex are not scientific, and are driven by emotion rather than reason.

Either someone has a Y chromosome or someone doesn’t. I’m open to debate on what it means to have trisomy X, Turner’s, XYY, and so on. But normally we are either XX or XY. Sex is either binary or it’s a genetic disorder that more or less causes problems if it’s even obvious. Anything else is made-up fantasy.

I don’t dispute that some males don’t look like males. I don’t dispute that there are other issues that blur the outward appearance of sex. I don’t dispute that some men would rather be women. But objectively speaking, genetics determines sex.

As already stated, SRY is more relevant than a Y chromosome. But that’s still not objective. You can objectively tell whether someone has a functioning copy of SRY, but you cannot objectively say “and this makes them male”. Ultimately whether one prioritises one genotype over another, or a genotype over a phenotype, or one phenotype over another, is a judgement call that reflects one’s own preferences. Definitions are not objective, they are socially constructed by humans based on limited information. There is no experiment that can be done that proves that your personal definition of sex is correct, it’s just something you’ve unilaterally decided is true rather than engage with a complex subject.



magz
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26 Apr 2022, 9:09 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I do feel like there is an over-emphasis on "gender norms." A man doesn't have to be macho in order to be a man; nor does a woman have to be fluffy-feminine in order to be a woman.
I'm not fluffy-feminine :lol: I don't remember when was the last time I wore makeup. But I feel myself in my body, the way it is.
But, above it all: A person is a person first. Not their sex nor gender first.


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26 Apr 2022, 9:11 am

^^^



Agree; it Would
Be Nice if We Could
All Just Be "Kindly Human"
And Treat Others Humanely;

Yet Sadly That's Not Based on Reality Either;
As Not All Humans Share That Gift; Both

Genetically And Environmentally

'Affected' And 'Effected' Too...

How Gifted Are Those of 'We'
Who Have That 'Humane' Gift

As One may Define 'Humane'
Differently too; Ranging From

Forcing Young Daughters Who May
Be Raped Violently By Their Fathers,
To Carry That Fetus to Term Without
the Option of Medically And Safely Ending
The Pregnancy Through Abortion; And Other
Women Raped As Such And All the Other Messy

Parts of Reality That Make Messy Decisions Reality too...

There is Nothing
About Life

'Truly

Binary,'

Other than
the Abstract
Constructs We
Create to Put Nature in Prison;
Yep What i Call 'God', 'The Naked Nature' oF iT ALL.

Yet Here's A Fact, if Only 1 Percent of Our Population
Is Affected By This or That; That's Over 3 Million Human
Beings; And While it Might Be Easy for the Other 99 Percent

to Marginalize Whoever Those Folks May Be With Their Human
Needs and Wants; Those Folks, Whoever They Are Exist; Just Like

The Million Folks Who Died From the Pandemic, While the Other
Millions Insisted on Their Freedoms to Provide Environments That

Were Not
Safe For
Their Fellow
Human Beings.

The Condition of
Humanity Is surely

Not Always 'Humane'; One Thing
For Sure, A 'Pandemic' of 'Human Ignorance'
Harms, Rapes, Maims, And Kills Many Indeed...

And Again, This Is Why 'We' Have Laws/Rules/
'Politically Correctness' to Protect 'The Marginalized.'



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26 Apr 2022, 11:02 am

The_Walrus wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
It is accurate and it is objective.

I don’t deny that subjective definitions of sex can be invented through wishful thinking, but I prefer an outlook that’s less distorted by emotion.

Your personal views don’t become objective simply because you say they do.

Your ideas about sex are not scientific, and are driven by emotion rather than reason.

Either someone has a Y chromosome or someone doesn’t. I’m open to debate on what it means to have trisomy X, Turner’s, XYY, and so on. But normally we are either XX or XY. Sex is either binary or it’s a genetic disorder that more or less causes problems if it’s even obvious. Anything else is made-up fantasy.

I don’t dispute that some males don’t look like males. I don’t dispute that there are other issues that blur the outward appearance of sex. I don’t dispute that some men would rather be women. But objectively speaking, genetics determines sex.

As already stated, SRY is more relevant than a Y chromosome. But that’s still not objective. You can objectively tell whether someone has a functioning copy of SRY, but you cannot objectively say “and this makes them male”. Ultimately whether one prioritises one genotype over another, or a genotype over a phenotype, or one phenotype over another, is a judgement call that reflects one’s own preferences. Definitions are not objective, they are socially constructed...

And therefore narrative-driven and wishful thinking or, in a word, irrelevant to those of us who "prefer" an objective worldview. Once you arrive at this conclusion, everything you say beyond this point is just made up.

My "preference" is that A=A, a person or thing is that person or thing. Rationalize it however you like. You cannot escape the fact that sex chromosomes determine sex. I don't ignore that people can feel that they're born into the wrong body or that other factors play into gender as more nuanced than black-and-white. Of course, men can express a preference for same-sex partners, as can women. Of course, using those definitions, gender can be subjective and have all 32 flavors. Of course, people can choose to exist in pure fantasy land, a subjective mindset, and refuse to acknowledge that any reality exists beyond whatever they imagine.

But I don't really think all people are like that. Most, maybe, but not all. If being born male or female doesn't work well with where you live physically or emotionally and you want to live as the opposite or anywhere in between, well, America is an awesome kind of place in that you don't have to. It's nobody's business what you want to do and what you choose to do as long as it doesn't hurt another individual. Yes, I acknowledge I have negative opinions about it that are out of place on WP. But that's not really up to me what YOU want to do, is it?

So what is really the point in working so hard to biologically justify something that's entirely subjective and fantasyland? I suspect that it's not simply a matter of having the personal freedom to be non-binary. I think it's to coerce people into accepting something that isn't objective/in their best interest. If you want to live outside the binary box, I can't stop you. I have no desire to stop you. I have no interest in stopping you. Why is it so urgent that I or anyone else believe and fully accept something contrary to reality?

Sure, some things are subjective, and that's ok. It's ok to be imaginative and dream up things that can be brought into objective reality. It's great to have ideas and to speak them into being. But let's not dream at the expense of our material existence. When reason guides imagination, amazing things begin to happen in the real, objective world. There's no need to confuse the two.