Is Sexual Orientation Actively Changable?

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calandale
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14 Aug 2007, 11:07 am

Ragtime wrote:

I said use a straight subject.

I agree with sopho here. BUT, if I had to
choose between a good looking man, and
some maggot infested, absolutely LEAST appealing
female that I could imagine, I believe that I'd choose
the male.

At least I'm pretty certain I COULD convince myself to
not vomit.

Last edited by calandale on 14 Aug 2007, 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sopho
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14 Aug 2007, 11:08 am

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

My point.

"Straight" is a relative term.

I meant how is this particular situation any different for a gay person or a straight person?

Most if not all gays and straights, when monitored by instruments, will show higher physical arousal when viewing/touching the most-beautiful-in-the-world-in-their-opinion person who's not their normally-prefered sex, than when viewing/touching the least-beautiful-in-the-world-in-their-opinion person who is their normally-prefered sex. So, "gay" and "straight" are relative phenonema.

There you go then, it's the same for gay people as it is for straight people.

Therefore, straight men aren't only attracted to women -- just mostly. And gay men aren't only attracted to men, just mostly. The "mostly" may be extreme or not, depending on the individual. Each person's sex attraction is plastic, and depends on between/among whom you give them a choice. So, being gay is partly societal, depending partly upon the particular demographics around them.

I've said several times before that being gay is exclusively OR ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY attracted to the same sex. I have also said that I think it likely that most people, if not everyone, has the capacity to go either way. You cannot know that what you just said is true for everyone though. I've only ever been attracted to women. I can't KNOW that I'll never be attracted to a man, but going by past experiences, and the fact that when I tried to force myself to be straight for years, I would say it's unlikely.

Sopho
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14 Aug 2007, 11:10 am

calandale wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

I said use a straight subject.

I agree with sopho here. BUT, if I had to
choose between a good looking man, and
some maggot infested, absolutely LEAST appealing
female that I could imagine, I believe that I'd choose
the male.

Yeah, if I had to have sex with either a repulsive woman or a good-looking man, I'd choose the guy. But that doesn't mean that I'd necessarily be attracted to them. I think lots of guys are attractive, but I wouldn't by aroused just be looking at them.

Ragtime
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14 Aug 2007, 11:14 am

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

My point.

"Straight" is a relative term.

I meant how is this particular situation any different for a gay person or a straight person?

There you go then, it's the same for gay people as it is for straight people.

Your entire post is logical and makes perfect sense. I'll call it a theory of mine that everyone is soft-wired, since you claim to be hard-wired. We agree that most people likely have the capacity to go either way, so I'll stop at "most".

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Sopho
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14 Aug 2007, 11:19 am

Ragtime wrote:

That's not to say that I think most people can make themselves switch orientations. Some people claim they can, so I will accept that they think that. I don't know how other people feel. My guess is that some people can, but they'd be closer to bisexual than gay or straight (ie. 80% rather than 99%). By saying everyone is probably not 100% one or the other, I mean that extreme circumstances can change this, such as being in prison. But I can't think of many situations where someone will be away from ANYONE of their preferred sex for a long period of time. That's probably why you hear so much about gays in the military, prison, and some religious institutions. In everyday life though, I doubt that many people really can switch.

calandale
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14 Aug 2007, 11:24 am

I'm kind of iffy on the idea that one
can LOSE one's taste for something,
actually. This seems to require burning
away pathways in the mind - which is possible,
but would probably be akin to defeating a major
psychological addiction.

Hell though, Rags, you claim that you pulled it
off, even just temporarily, so I guess I'll believe
you. How did you test your resolve though? I often
find that having a pretty thang on her knees in front
of me, while resistible, definitely draws some desire
from me - and I don't THINK that I could obviate that
want.

Ragtime
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14 Aug 2007, 1:19 pm

If a gay woman can consensually have sex with a hundred men and no women during her lifetime and still be gay, then gay has no real and true application with regard to how someone should live their life.

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Ragtime
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14 Aug 2007, 1:27 pm

calandale wrote:

Well, it's like memory. You can "forget" for a variety of reasons, even though the particular memory is still there.
You can develop an aversion to something which exceeds your enjoyment of it, thus yielding a net result of dislike.

calandale wrote:

Hell though, Rags, you claim that you pulled it
off, even just temporarily, so I guess I'll believe
you. How did you test your resolve though? I often
find that having a pretty thang on her knees in front
of me, while resistible, definitely draws some desire
from me - and I don't THINK that I could obviate that
want.

I never said my knees wouldn't be shaking. I'm only human!

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Hadron
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14 Aug 2007, 1:28 pm

calandale wrote:

Not really, but it depends how intense the taste is. I change my mind quite often as to what food I like for instance. You could also build new pathways in the mind that would have the same effect as burning different ones.

calandale
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14 Aug 2007, 1:29 pm

Ragtime wrote:

.

Some people are prostitutes. They like money.
It's more important than their orientation/other
desires. Some like children. Some like shoes.

Doesn't CHANGE their orientation though. Just as
if I chose to allow myself to be raped in prison, rather
than knifed would change mine. Either way, one makes
a choice.

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14 Aug 2007, 1:41 pm

calandale wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

.

Some people are prostitutes. They like money.
It's more important than their orientation/other
desires. Some like children. Some like shoes.

Exactly my point. Circumstances / other desires intervene. But just because said prostitute places prostitution ahead of a gay lifestyle in priority doesn't any more make her inately a prostitute.

calandale wrote:

Doesn't CHANGE their orientation though.

You're right, it doesn't. My point here regards the significance of the orientation -- if it is volitionally circumvented so many times, for so many reasons, and in so many different ways. The orientation may exist, but to what specific degree does it matter in everyday life? For instance, my faith in Christ is meant to define everything I do. Gayness is less defining, for I don't think anyone does everything "like a gay person", nor would they consider it important to try such.

calandale wrote:

Just as if I chose to allow myself to be raped in prison, rather
than knifed would change mine. Either way, one makes
a choice.

Well, that would be a lower level of volition, indeed: you're raped or you're dead. Not a true "choice", for, as with "Your money or your life", it's not a true offer of one OR the other. A choice to be knifed rather than raped will likely result in both, as would taking the other "option".

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Sopho
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14 Aug 2007, 1:47 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Doesn't mean that was how she wanted to live her life though. Or how anyone else is.
And no one bust you is claiming that being gay is to do with how you live your life. She's still gay.

calandale
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14 Aug 2007, 1:47 pm

Ragtime wrote:

But some have faith in Christ, but not so much.
Just as some are willing to put aside their orientation,
for other reasons. And some are willing to lay down
their lives for what they believe. YOU don't know
another person's commitment to their orientation,
or God, or life.

Quote:

calandale wrote:

Just as if I chose to allow myself to be raped in prison, rather
than knifed would change mine. Either way, one makes
a choice.

Every bit as much of a choice. Have you
never heard the phrase, "death before dishonor?"

Just because you don't have the imagination to
see that there are things that some would die
for, doesn't mean that 'tis not the case for them.

Sopho
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14 Aug 2007, 1:51 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Exactly my point. Circumstances / other desires intervene. But just because said prostitute places prostitution ahead of a gay lifestyle in priority doesn't any more make her inately a prostitute.

But the initial desires are still there.

Ragtime wrote:

Of course it doesn't seem to matter in the great scheme of things. But indirectly, it does. It's not jsut about sex. It can be about whether someone chooses to spend the rest of their lives with someone they won't be happy with, just to please their parents, or becuase society says they should, or whether they'll be with someone they want to be with. My sexuality isn't really important in and of itself, but the things it affects are. If I end up in a relationship with the same person for the rest of my life, it will most likely be a woman.

Ragtime
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14 Aug 2007, 1:55 pm

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Doesn't mean that was how she wanted to live her life though.

Right, but few if any people are able to live their lives exactly as they'd like to. That doesn't mean they're living a lie. Part of me would like to be rich. That doesn't mean I'm actually rich inside!

Sopho wrote:

And no one but you is claiming that being gay is to do with how you live your life. She's still gay.

As usual, you're only taking part of what I said. Being gay means more than a guy feeling a twinge between his legs when Mr. Studly steps into the lift with him. That's sensation, which I specifically differentiated from decision. I may feel dizzy; that doesn't mean dizzy is who I am.

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Last edited by Ragtime on 14 Aug 2007, 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sopho
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14 Aug 2007, 1:59 pm

Ragtime wrote:

Sopho wrote:

Ragtime wrote:

Doesn't mean that was how she wanted to live her life though. Part of me would like to be rich. That doesn't mean I'm actually rich inside!

Right, but few if any people are able to live their lives exactly as they'd like to. That doesn't mean they're living a lie.

Sopho wrote:

And no one but you is claiming that being gay is to do with how you live your life. She's still gay.

1. When did I say that thing about being rich? And I never said she was living a lie, I'm sure she knows she's gay, even while having sex with men. I was just making the point that her sleeping with these men has no impact on whether or not she is gay.

2. You don't need to tell me what being gay is ffs. :roll:

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