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Hadron
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27 Aug 2007, 5:14 pm

Two things wrong with that arguement. One it hasnt been put into a real scientific journal, nor peer-reviewed. Secondly it misses off the fact that other slower decaying elements can decay into Carbon-14. Nice try, but no cigar.



iamnotaparakeet
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27 Aug 2007, 5:23 pm

It is peer reviewed, just not by peers of your nature. That depends on where the carbon came from, in this case the C14 should have be long gone and there no evidence of a parent isotope. I thought you wanted to debate, I guess you just want to wave you hand and do your thing.



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27 Aug 2007, 5:28 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
It is peer reviewed, just not by peers of your nature. That depends on where the carbon came from, in this case the C14 should have be long gone and there no evidence of a parent isotope. I thought you wanted to debate, I guess you just want to wave you hand and do your thing.

If it was peer-reviewed by scientific experts I would not object to it. But it evidently hasnt been, otherwise the paper would be in a recognised journal, and written like a real paper. I would need some more evidence to be convinced, one article from a dubious source isnt enough.



iamnotaparakeet
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27 Aug 2007, 5:44 pm

Many young earth creationists, such as Jay L. Wile PhD Nuclear Chemistry, have articles in secularly peer-review journals. However they are not allowed to post on the issues related to origins unless it is from an evolutionary viewpoint. It is really pointless to ask me or anyone to give anything on creation from one of those journals because it's on a no-no list in those journals. Creationist with PhDs have made their own peer-review journals to compensate for this discrimination. However, as you have just pointed out, mainstream bias individuals like yourself don't care to accept anything they say simply because it's not mainstream.



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27 Aug 2007, 5:57 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Many young earth creationists, such as Jay L. Wile PhD Nuclear Chemistry, have articles in secularly peer-review journals. However they are not allowed to post on the issues related to origins unless it is from an evolutionary viewpoint. It is really pointless to ask me or anyone to give anything on creation from one of those journals because it's on a no-no list in those journals. Creationist with PhDs have made their own peer-review journals to compensate for this discrimination. However, as you have just pointed out, mainstream bias individuals like yourself don't care to accept anything they say simply because it's not mainstream.

There is nothing to stop you getting agnostic scientists to review the evidence, but in that report there is no experiment write out for someone to repeat and verify, as there would be in a real scientic report. If there was then the evidence would have been proven now. Though I conceed that mainstream journals are less likely to publish creationist articles, but if they were not obviously creationist, the experiments could easily be published.



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27 Aug 2007, 6:31 pm

if this means that the earth is only 6,000 years old, aproximately, what about the rest of the universe?


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Hadron
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27 Aug 2007, 6:32 pm

greenblue wrote:
if this means that the earth is only 6,000 years old, aproximately, what about the rest of the universe?

Its in the order of 10 billion years, but it depends on what the hubble constant actually is.



Anubis
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27 Aug 2007, 6:36 pm

One problem that I see is that Atheists are just too uptight about things like this. "Oh no, religion is wrong because it's illogical!"
"Wrong wrong wrong!"
Have you ever thought of what religion does for some people? Even if it's in vain, it works as a good mental placebo. People can reassure themselves that their chosen deity will protect them, and that attitude may make them sure of themselves, increase their will to live, and relax and comfort them. Religions also ensure that moral fibre remains in society, including a respect for human life the way it should be.

I know that I may be sounding biased towards the theists, but I feel that religion is getting kicked about unfairly.

I don't really think that you can have Creationist Scientists, the term is almost an oxymoron. You mean blind fools who follow the bible to every last word, but don't review the facts. The mainstream view amongst many religions today is that science explains the universe created by God, as it were. Perhaps some religious people believe that science will one day find God in whichever dimension he resides. Or find the explanation for God. God is a rather general term, it could mean simply mean the laws of the universe which we don't know yet, a supernatural deity, or an actual force which affects everyone. That would be the ultimate scientific achievement, in a way. Perhaps even better, to obtain an ultimate level of power over the universe that would rival a God's.

How philosophy has become much more complicated over the years.

The facts remain that religion does help people on an individual level, helps them cope with the vast, cold, unforgiving, uncompromising universe whether there is a God or not. That's the way many humans work.
Could you cope with the information that everything is futile in the end? Wouldn't you want to escape from that and be happy?
Of course, there are other ways to cope, but you have to be pretty strong willed and determined to cope with that, or just keep your mind off it, which itself can be difficult.

Ask yourself this: Would you rather believe that you had an eternal soul, or believe in total mental/spiritual death in the end based on only that which has been proven by science?

Let's just state a fact that everyone should know-

Just because science can't prove it, doesn't mean it's there. You have to have faith and imagination in order to percieve that a certain force could exist.

Also, some people call themselves open minded yet they aren't open to the possiblility that a God, in whatever form, might just exist. Who's the open minded one? The person who believes and has that faith in their religion of choice, yet is open and tolerant?
Or the complete atheist who says "hey, God isn't real you stupid £@X$%! !! I can't tolerate religious people, they need to shut the hell up and stop believing! WHAT, IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE? OMG YOU STUPID MORMON, all you have to do is convince yourself that it isn't real! OMG!! ! Religion brings no benefits because people don't acknowledge that there is no God! I don't care about humanitarian Christians, all that matters is that religious people get a brain and stop believing in God because it's not rational!! !"

So, please stop being so hypocritical, everybody.

Ok, I hope my rant got through to a few people.


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iamnotaparakeet
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27 Aug 2007, 6:36 pm

I plan on becoming an electronics technician, and I'm getting A's in my introductory courses. However, after I can support myself as a technician I'm going to continue on in my favorite field: chemistry. Perhaps I can provide some of that testible evidence you're looking for. Yeah, I think you're right about staying convert on the issues. Coworkers can be nasty sometimes; they ask you what you think about something, if I speak my mind and answer them honestly, I am reported and fired. That has happened the last 3 jobs anyway. Do you know of any that aren't openly hostile to Christians where you live?



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27 Aug 2007, 6:38 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I plan on becoming an electronics technician, and I'm getting A's in my introductory courses. However, after I can support myself as a technician I'm going to continue on in my favorite field: chemistry. Perhaps I can provide some of that testible evidence you're looking for. Yeah, I think you're right about staying convert on the issues. Coworkers can be nasty sometimes; they ask you what you think about something, if I speak my mind and answer them honestly, I am reported and fired. That has happened the last 3 jobs anyway. Do you know of any that aren't openly hostile to Christians where you live?


That's absolutely disgusting. Are anti-discrimination laws biased against Christians or something, don't they recieve the same rights to freedom of speech and thought?


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27 Aug 2007, 6:47 pm

Anubis wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I plan on becoming an electronics technician, and I'm getting A's in my introductory courses. However, after I can support myself as a technician I'm going to continue on in my favorite field: chemistry. Perhaps I can provide some of that testible evidence you're looking for. Yeah, I think you're right about staying convert on the issues. Coworkers can be nasty sometimes; they ask you what you think about something, if I speak my mind and answer them honestly, I am reported and fired. That has happened the last 3 jobs anyway. Do you know of any that aren't openly hostile to Christians where you live?


That's absolutely disgusting. Are anti-discrimination laws biased against Christians or something, don't they recieve the same rights to freedom of speech and thought?

More like our friend has no understanding of good old office politics.



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27 Aug 2007, 6:52 pm

Hadron wrote:
Anubis wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I plan on becoming an electronics technician, and I'm getting A's in my introductory courses. However, after I can support myself as a technician I'm going to continue on in my favorite field: chemistry. Perhaps I can provide some of that testible evidence you're looking for. Yeah, I think you're right about staying convert on the issues. Coworkers can be nasty sometimes; they ask you what you think about something, if I speak my mind and answer them honestly, I am reported and fired. That has happened the last 3 jobs anyway. Do you know of any that aren't openly hostile to Christians where you live?


That's absolutely disgusting. Are anti-discrimination laws biased against Christians or something, don't they recieve the same rights to freedom of speech and thought?

More like our friend has no understanding of good old office politics.


That sort of crap should be illegal in the case of religious expression. You shouldn't be forced to lie about your religious beliefs to save your job!


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27 Aug 2007, 6:54 pm

Hadron wrote:
Anubis wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I plan on becoming an electronics technician, and I'm getting A's in my introductory courses. However, after I can support myself as a technician I'm going to continue on in my favorite field: chemistry. Perhaps I can provide some of that testible evidence you're looking for. Yeah, I think you're right about staying convert on the issues. Coworkers can be nasty sometimes; they ask you what you think about something, if I speak my mind and answer them honestly, I am reported and fired. That has happened the last 3 jobs anyway. Do you know of any that aren't openly hostile to Christians where you live?


That's absolutely disgusting. Are anti-discrimination laws biased against Christians or something, don't they recieve the same rights to freedom of speech and thought?

More like our friend has no understanding of good old office politics.


They solicit my opinion, if I give it, I'm fired. I hate politics and freedom of speech isn't free.



Hadron
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27 Aug 2007, 6:56 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Hadron wrote:
Anubis wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
I plan on becoming an electronics technician, and I'm getting A's in my introductory courses. However, after I can support myself as a technician I'm going to continue on in my favorite field: chemistry. Perhaps I can provide some of that testible evidence you're looking for. Yeah, I think you're right about staying convert on the issues. Coworkers can be nasty sometimes; they ask you what you think about something, if I speak my mind and answer them honestly, I am reported and fired. That has happened the last 3 jobs anyway. Do you know of any that aren't openly hostile to Christians where you live?


That's absolutely disgusting. Are anti-discrimination laws biased against Christians or something, don't they recieve the same rights to freedom of speech and thought?

More like our friend has no understanding of good old office politics.


They solicit my opinion, if I give it, I'm fired. I hate politics and freedom of speech isn't free.

Its called the world of work. Personally I wouldnt employ a rabid fundementalist of any perspective either, it causes lots of friction in the office. How difficult is it to button it for the working days about religion.



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27 Aug 2007, 7:04 pm

Anubis wrote:
One problem that I see is that Atheists are just too uptight about things like this. "Oh no, religion is wrong because it's illogical!"
"Wrong wrong wrong!"
Have you ever thought of what religion does for some people? Even if it's in vain, it works as a good mental placebo. People can reassure themselves that their chosen deity will protect them, and that attitude may make them sure of themselves, increase their will to live, and relax and comfort them. Religions also ensure that moral fibre remains in society, including a respect for human life the way it should be.

I know that I may be sounding biased towards the theists, but I feel that religion is getting kicked about unfairly.

I don't really think that you can have Creationist Scientists, the term is almost an oxymoron. You mean blind fools who follow the bible to every last word, but don't review the facts. The mainstream view amongst many religions today is that science explains the universe created by God, as it were. Perhaps some religious people believe that science will one day find God in whichever dimension he resides. Or find the explanation for God. God is a rather general term, it could mean simply mean the laws of the universe which we don't know yet, a supernatural deity, or an actual force which affects everyone. That would be the ultimate scientific achievement, in a way. Perhaps even better, to obtain an ultimate level of power over the universe that would rival a God's.

How philosophy has become much more complicated over the years.

The facts remain that religion does help people on an individual level, helps them cope with the vast, cold, unforgiving, uncompromising universe whether there is a God or not. That's the way many humans work.
Could you cope with the information that everything is futile in the end? Wouldn't you want to escape from that and be happy?
Of course, there are other ways to cope, but you have to be pretty strong willed and determined to cope with that, or just keep your mind off it, which itself can be difficult.

Ask yourself this: Would you rather believe that you had an eternal soul, or believe in total mental/spiritual death in the end based on only that which has been proven by science?

Let's just state a fact that everyone should know-

Just because science can't prove it, doesn't mean it's there. You have to have faith and imagination in order to percieve that a certain force could exist.

Also, some people call themselves open minded yet they aren't open to the possiblility that a God, in whatever form, might just exist. Who's the open minded one? The person who believes and has that faith in their religion of choice, yet is open and tolerant?
Or the complete atheist who says "hey, God isn't real you stupid £@X$%! !! I can't tolerate religious people, they need to shut the hell up and stop believing! WHAT, IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE? OMG YOU STUPID MORMON, all you have to do is convince yourself that it isn't real! OMG!! ! Religion brings no benefits because people don't acknowledge that there is no God! I don't care about humanitarian Christians, all that matters is that religious people get a brain and stop believing in God because it's not rational!! !"

So, please stop being so hypocritical, everybody.

Ok, I hope my rant got through to a few people.


BUMP


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27 Aug 2007, 7:12 pm

Anubis wrote:
Anubis wrote:
One problem that I see is that Atheists are just too uptight about things like this. "Oh no, religion is wrong because it's illogical!"
"Wrong wrong wrong!"
Have you ever thought of what religion does for some people? Even if it's in vain, it works as a good mental placebo. People can reassure themselves that their chosen deity will protect them, and that attitude may make them sure of themselves, increase their will to live, and relax and comfort them. Religions also ensure that moral fibre remains in society, including a respect for human life the way it should be.

I know that I may be sounding biased towards the theists, but I feel that religion is getting kicked about unfairly.

I don't really think that you can have Creationist Scientists, the term is almost an oxymoron. You mean blind fools who follow the bible to every last word, but don't review the facts. The mainstream view amongst many religions today is that science explains the universe created by God, as it were. Perhaps some religious people believe that science will one day find God in whichever dimension he resides. Or find the explanation for God. God is a rather general term, it could mean simply mean the laws of the universe which we don't know yet, a supernatural deity, or an actual force which affects everyone. That would be the ultimate scientific achievement, in a way. Perhaps even better, to obtain an ultimate level of power over the universe that would rival a God's.

How philosophy has become much more complicated over the years.

The facts remain that religion does help people on an individual level, helps them cope with the vast, cold, unforgiving, uncompromising universe whether there is a God or not. That's the way many humans work.
Could you cope with the information that everything is futile in the end? Wouldn't you want to escape from that and be happy?
Of course, there are other ways to cope, but you have to be pretty strong willed and determined to cope with that, or just keep your mind off it, which itself can be difficult.

Ask yourself this: Would you rather believe that you had an eternal soul, or believe in total mental/spiritual death in the end based on only that which has been proven by science?

Let's just state a fact that everyone should know-

Just because science can't prove it, doesn't mean it's there. You have to have faith and imagination in order to percieve that a certain force could exist.

Also, some people call themselves open minded yet they aren't open to the possiblility that a God, in whatever form, might just exist. Who's the open minded one? The person who believes and has that faith in their religion of choice, yet is open and tolerant?
Or the complete atheist who says "hey, God isn't real you stupid £@X$%! !! I can't tolerate religious people, they need to shut the hell up and stop believing! WHAT, IT'S NOT THAT SIMPLE? OMG YOU STUPID MORMON, all you have to do is convince yourself that it isn't real! OMG!! ! Religion brings no benefits because people don't acknowledge that there is no God! I don't care about humanitarian Christians, all that matters is that religious people get a brain and stop believing in God because it's not rational!! !"

So, please stop being so hypocritical, everybody.

Ok, I hope my rant got through to a few people.


BUMP

Time to give little Anubis some attention then:
I am well aware of what religion can do for people. It does a mix of good and bad, possibly more bad than good.
Not going to argue with the creationist scientists bit.
You might want to notice religious teaching keeps changing to accomodate scientific facts. In the far future it will have nowhere to run to.