Jihad is it right or wrong?

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Fundamentalist religion is bad, wether it is Islam or Christianity, I believe the difference must relies on culture.

I heard about neonazis christian sects, I don't know if that was about Klu klux klan or any other, but that is an example that religion can be manipulated and become a good or probably the best way to brainwash people to do terrorism and hate crimes.

QFT

Last edited by greenblue on 18 Sep 2007, 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

When Christians are preaching that abortion
is murder, yes. If they ARE correct, then
the action of bombing is justifiable. If not,
they should stop saying it.

1.



To be a Moslem, you must believe in the "original ontract".

2.
Which ones? Don't quote out of context. I suspect you're referring to sections that say don't treat them too harshly or unjustly because that would likely bring retribution from them.

I am not saying it's biased. I'm just saying what it says.

3.
The Koran and Moslems say Christians are polytheists, not me.

4.
Really? . Who, where, how. I don't believe you.

It sounded like you that all members of a faith, including moderates, have to take responsibility for the actions of the extreme members of that faith. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Oh, to some extent. At the very least, to
the point of denouncing, and making it
damned clear that their views aren't the
same. Otherwise, they lend legitimacy.

defensive jihad is acceptable. jihad for the sake of converting others isn't. the jihad currently declared is the former...not the latter. don't confuse that and don't confuse reality for the propaganda to make it seem okay to just wantonly kill brown people.

well, I don't know exactly what is the point of this thread
but it seemed to me a generalization towards a few countries in which you could make an excuse for your belief that it is ok an invasion to such countries, which it would be a little ironic if christianity is involved. Although, most likely I could be wrong on this.

4. You don't believe that Jesus is revered in Islam? How is it that you are so quick to quote the Koran, yet you are unaware of the passages there about Jesus? There are also tons of other indications from what they write. If you really tried to understand what Muslims believe, this would not be a mystery to you.



3. Yes, Muslims believe that there is one, undivisible God. They reject the idea of the trinity as a corrupt doctrine that smacks of polytheism. Even many Christian scholars understand the trinity as a pre-Christian belief that was merged into into Christianity by Greek mystics. Just like many of the current 'Christian' practices around Christmass and Easter and Halloween came from pre-Christian religions. Which some people reject on the grounds of doctrine, others accept as decorative themes.

2. I'm not quoting out of context. If you study the scriptures and the history of Islam, you will find a mixed bag. Some people who wore the Muslim brand were tolerant to Jews and Christians, some were not. Same way that some that some who wore the Christian brand have been tolerant and kind to Jews, while others have persecuted them, often based on an interpretation of the Bible. At times, the Christian New Testament speaks critically of the Jews. Which someone could take to the nth degree and use to launch persecution. Or they could recognize other commonality between Christians and Jews, and decide to live in peace and harmony with most Jews. The same with Islam and their book and their history. You are the one that has taken fragments out of context.

1. ??? You've baffled me on that. I have no idea what you are trying to communicate.

Its unsurprising that the Koran mentions the virgin birth etc, and has plenty to say on jews and christians and whatnot, in a specific manner. It was after all, written AFTER these other religions were founded, and had theoretical access to its texts and preachers. Note well that the bible makes no mention specifically of muslims, nor to begin with christians. I notice none of these texts have a great deal to say about far eastern religions such as Taoism, Buddhism etc. That would be because the people who wrote these books had no idea they existed at all. If they get mention at all, it is as a generalised "other religions that are not ours".

Quite apart from the fact that it shows the human influence of these texts (an omnicogniescent god would know about Tao.) it makes me wonder what the specific instructions written on dealing with these religions would be.

As far as I can gather, the koran suggests that yes, other religions are bad, but that it is just as good to teach them the error of their ways as to kill them en masse. If that were not the case, they wouldnt take converts.
All these texts show a similar bent. Kill them perhaps, teach them they are wrong otherwise.

After all, the muslim states would have a right happy dance moment if Bush declared he was a devout muslim.

You're missing the whole point. Is Jihad OK? On face value, The Koran tells Muslims its OK to kill Jews wherever you find them if they return to their homes. It tells them if you make friends with Jews and Christians there is no place for you in heaven. It says its bad to kill an innocent, but you are only innocent if you do not reject Allah.

While you can accuse fundamentalist Christians of being wrong in their interpretation of the Bible (which means Library, the Bible is many books, i.e. Book of Genensis, Book of Kings, etc), and you would be right. The various books were written by different people at different times. You cannot do the same to Muslims. The Koran is one book only, written at one time, and it is the word of Allah, not Muhammed or anyone else. Are you saying the infallible word of Allah is wrong? A Jihad on you - lol.

Theologically speaking, some Christians hold outdated notions, but Moslems do not. They believe the Koran is the infallible word of Allah, otherwise they are not Muslim, or they have rejected Allah and commit a great sin.

The Old Testament in the Bible is in large part made redundant by the New Testament. The over riding theme in the New Testament is to love your neighbour, turn the other cheek and love your enemies. Christians who fail to do this are not good Christians, so don't argue that because of the Holy Roman Empire, the inquisitions and the crusades the Christianity is brutal. The institutions were not following Christian principals, which is why the Reformation came about.

Show me in the Koran where is says to love your neighbour and to do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or to turn the other cheek. If you can't, then don't insult me by saying that Islam is the same as Christianity.

(At face value at least), the Koran tells Muslims that Jihad is OK.

You have a particularly one eyed view on this matter of religious interpretation BazzaMcKenzie ???
peace j

show me in the New Testament where is says anything like this:

Where is it one eyed?

I think human nature is fundamentally the same across all peoples and all countries, but I started looking at the Koran after Moslem clerics say we abhor the killing of innocents. But it keeps happening. Their remarks always seemed to be qualified. So I looked at the Koran.

People post statements that I believe to be just plain wrong, I show where I think its wrong.

I am happy to be shown where I am wrong, but not by some idiot who quotes only 3 words out of context from a longer passage or who says that Moslems want to emulate Christ.

That's interesting.

There is a few stuff from the Old Testament:







Fundamentalist regimen have been used those OT writings as a basis to punish in a very cruel way crimes and supposedly crimes against their religion system, for example the killings of homosexuals. Now those same writings are shared with the three religions: Islam, Judaism and Christianity.

Now, I am not sure about the Jihad stuff. I doubt this was was about "Terrorism" at the time, I know the term didn't exist then, mostly that would mean to Conquer, that is, to go and conquer other lands and force inhabitants to follow their religions, doesn't seem they did that, not sure though. Christians did that when conquering the "New World". So we should take into consideration the time it was written, and what would have been the original meaning of it, it is said that it was meant as a Defense, defending themselves against the opression from other civilizations more powerful than they were, like the Roman Empire for example. It could also meant to be used as an internal "spiritual" structure.

The Koran does not give a license to kill all Jews - the "They" that you cite refers specifically to those who try to turn Muslims away from their faith. Such people should not be befriended until they leave 'their homes' which means their beliefs, and turn to Islam.

It is considered a crime in Islam for believers (who have accepted the message of Muhammed) to stop believing, and that is punished by death. This is referred to in various passages as turning back, denying the once truth once it has been seen, or returning home (to their previous beliefs).

I don't agree with such punishments; I think it is a clear conflict with the passage that says that there should be no compulsion in religion. But your shallow reading that this is license to kill all Jews is quite different from the way that passage is being interpreted and practiced by most Muslims.

Where in the Koran does it say to love your neighbor and do unto others as you would have them do unto you? It does not appear in those exact words in either the Koran or the Old Testament. But the Koran does say "None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." If you want to be an ultra-literalist, you can interpret that as applying only to male blood relatives. And you want to be ultra-literalist about loving your neighbor, you can make it mean only the people that live in close geographical proximity

All 3 religions have many references promoting good works, charity, righteousness, justice, and other virtues. Presumably, if people value these virtues, they would treat their neighbors that way, and would want to be treated the same way? The good want justice and mercy and compassion for both themselves and their brothers.

I'm not trying to insult you and say that Islam is 'The Same' as Christianity in every single way. I'm not saying that Christianity is the same as Judaism. But they all grew out of the same roots, they all have commonalities. And enough differences for the hot-blooded of all branches to hate and kill the others.

If people applied your logic of literal interpretation to Christianity, then we could say that it enshrines doctrines that promote self-mutilation:

Mark 47: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.'

We all know that when most hetero men look at attractive women, they get lust in their heart, which is a sin. Is it not better to heed the literal word of God and pluck out one or both of your eyes, that you refrain from sin, whose wages are eternal death? Clearly, on face value, the words of the Gospel tell you to mutilate your face. And does this not also apply to your ears if the sound of a woman's voice can make you think of sinful things? If you are worried that your tongue might be used in the future to lie, would it not be Biblical to cut it out of your mouth right now?

Should we not spread the word that Christianity is inherently a dangerous thing, as it exhorts people to destroy their bodies in this world in return for a promise of a much greater reward in the next world? Never mind the fact that few Christians actually practice this .... they are not true Christians, because they choose to ignore what is plainly written. If we take scriptures as saying what they say, then we must conclude that if people truly accept the Gospel of Mark, they will encounter a spiritual land-mine that causes them to physically self-destruct.

does not.

More lies and half truths

Do an online seach. The KORAN DOES NOT SAY THAT OR ANYTHING LIKE IT.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/k/koran/
http://etext.virginia.edu/koran.html
http://www.bibliomania.com/1/7/80/1940/frameset.html

and I don't care for a theological argument, my point is the Koran, on a plain reading, without twisting isolated and obtuse passages, gives Moslems committing Jihad comfort that they are in their minds doing the work of God.