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I think Evangelical and extreme Christians...
Are absolutely correct, these morals SHOULD be law! 6%  6%  [ 6 ]
Are mostly right, but maybe a bit too intense. 12%  12%  [ 13 ]
Are mostly wrong, but we need the balance. 9%  9%  [ 9 ]
VERY WRONG! Christian morals are great for church, but church and state must remain separate! 73%  73%  [ 77 ]
Total votes : 105

darkstone100
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27 Apr 2008, 10:20 am

I may have the times screwed up but at least I'm not flat out denying that this country was founded on Christian ideals.
EDIT: I also knew that using the salem witch trials was a bad example but at the moment the best thing I could think of


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sinsboldly
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27 Apr 2008, 10:48 am

The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses." - John Adams



sinsboldly
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27 Apr 2008, 10:48 am

I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man" - Thomas Jefferson

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison


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sinsboldly
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27 Apr 2008, 10:49 am

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon that the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel." - Thomas Paine

"We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ... In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States." - George Washington



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27 Apr 2008, 11:10 am

In 1776, there was no Evangelical movement. There was no Southern Baptist Convention, no Assemblies of God, etc.

Evangelical Christianity didn't even exist until about 1900, and was not mixed with politics until the 1970s.


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Kalister1
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27 Apr 2008, 12:23 pm

As sinsboldly has pointed out, we were NOT founded on Christian values. Many of the founding fathers would be considered atheists today. In their day, they could never adopt that as an official stance, and so never really "came out of the closet". The best way to describe them is as secularists; the church and the state should be separate!

We were founded on utilitarian values, for the last time! Read some philosophy.



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27 Apr 2008, 12:48 pm

This is all very interesting, but speaking as a European I wonder, how did the present state of affairs come about? Except for Italy (which is exceptional due to the proximity of the Vatican), religion plays little or no part in European politics, and I don't think there is another industrialised country where it has the same influence as in the States. If a presidential candidate in a western European country were to come out as an atheist, he wouldn't lose more than a handful of votes among religious extremists, but in the States it would be political suicide. How come, if, as you say, the country was founded by agnostics and closet atheists?


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27 Apr 2008, 12:53 pm

A few countries in South America are industrialized. Michelle Bachelet, the president of Chile, is an agnostic despite the country being very conservative.


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Icheb
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27 Apr 2008, 12:57 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
A few countries in South America are industrialized. Michelle Bachelet, the president of Chile, is an agnostic despite the country being very conservative.

That was kind of my point, yes. Nor are Japan or the south-east Asian "tiger states" dominated by religion.


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27 Apr 2008, 1:13 pm

Mage wrote:
Ever watched "Jesus Camp"? That's a scary, scary film.


That Fundy camp was not that far from where I live (Fargo, Ironically the camp was close to the city of Devil's Lake, North Dakota, LOL!! !). That there are fanatics so close to here scared the heck out of me.


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27 Apr 2008, 1:14 pm

Most of Latin America is heading toward the left politically, but religion still plays a strong role in society.

I think only Colombia, Peru, and Mexico are still moderate or conservative.

But then again, no one pays attention to Guyana or Suriname.


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27 Apr 2008, 1:18 pm

CityAsylum wrote:
darkstone100 wrote:
Jehovah's witness says that only 144,000 people get to got to heaven

Well, that does bring up problems! A Mormon guy told me that he wanted to save my ancestors (well, yours, too), and that is why they have that exhaustive geneaological database.

If they are successful, we will all be stuffed into heaven where we don't fit, bickering and punching each other even more than we do here. :x

Also, Hell would be practically empty, which makes it sound like a pretty nice place to me, if they could just address the A/C issues. :twisted:


I think it was Christopher Hitchens that said that the Christian conception of Heaven as formulated by theologians sounds like a celestial North Korea!


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darkstone100
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27 Apr 2008, 1:20 pm

to bads it's not more like south korea they love MMORPG's and games like starcraft 2


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27 Apr 2008, 1:26 pm

Mikomi wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
Social_Fantom wrote:
I wouldn't expect sex but I would just let it happen if it ever does. :roll:


I meant as opposed to waiting 5 years for marriage, when she doesn't believe in premarital sex--like my second girlfriend.

Come to think of it, I think she may have been an extreme Christian.


I think sex is a critical part of a relationship. I don't think that should wait until marriage. I mean, I have no issue with people who do - that's super if it's for you. However, I don't want any law forcing it...and I swear in the state of Ohio you're gonna get ID'd to buy a freakin cucumber pretty soon.


IMO the "No sex before marriage" thing is a relic from when most marriages were arranged and women were married off at 16. I think a much more appropriate rule for modern society and one that I follow is "no sex until you are in a steady relationship," that is, no one-night stands and promiscuity.


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27 Apr 2008, 1:29 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Separation of Church and State is a false issue. Bill of Rights is about the freedom of the Church from State interference, not the other way around which the liberals want to make it into.


Your fellow aspie Thomas Jefferson would beg to differ.

In a treaty with the Barbary states of North Africa the US explicitly stated it is a secular nation


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27 Apr 2008, 1:35 pm

Chibi_Neko wrote:
Many conservative christans don't get the fact that the bible is a guide, not a rule book.


Being a biblical literalist mans that one obviously does not know the history of Christianity. The New Testament didn't come fully forms out of thin air it is a collection of various documents put together by a council of bishops ordered by Roman emperor Constantine. The Old Testament is an obvious mix of mythology and oral history.


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