To religious people. Will atheists go to hell or heaven?
You are a liar.
How else can they debunk even the mere credibility of the notion that the universe was intelligently designed?
Unnecessary beauty in nature is a chief pillar of any view that the world was created by a being with an artistic eye.
I do not believe that there there is any design in the cosmos and that is partly WHY I think the beauty of the universe is so wonderful, it shows that beauty and elegance can come about without design. Thinking the beauty of the universe is the result of design is the result of imposing anthropomorphic projections of human "social reality" were they doesn't belong.
The religions you just named, why do they make sense? I assume you've compared and cross-ref'd them with all others. And what's required of a religion in order for it to make sense?
I don't understand why you object so strenuously to the idea of personal God. What's the advantage of a non-personal God?
Exactly! As I've said many times, the whole concept of "God" is merely a personification of the Universe, equivalent to animistic beleifs except on a universal scale.
1. They tend to reject personal, anthropomorphic conceptions of divinity.
2. They are generally free of miracles and other superstitious elements.
I object to people anthropomorphizing the universe. I worship the Cosmos itself, not a pathetic anthropomorphic version of it.
Yes, I agree! But what's wrong with thinking this way? I have yet to be convinced why worshipping a personal God is wrong.
Yes, I agree! But what's wrong with thinking this way? I have yet to be convinced why worshipping a personal God is wrong.
Because such thinking turns the divine into a supernatural Santa Claus that answers your (usually base and materialistic) prayers and/or a supernatural father-judge who smites and damns people and things you hate. Both are psychological crutches that get in the way of real spirituality. This is why many mystics got in trouble with ecclesiastical authorities, their experiences contradicted the anthropomorphic conceptions of the divine that made up the doctrines of the Abrahamic religions. The Sufis got in trouble a lot IIRC.
I suck at explaining things, so maybe this site I ran into describes it better:
http://members.aol.com/heraklit1/basicpri.htm
The cosmos is divine.
The earth is sacred.
When we say the cosmos is divine, we mean it with just as much conviction, emotion and commitment as believers when they say that their god is God.
But we are not making a vague statement about an invisible being who is beyond proof or disproof. We are talking about our own emotional responses to the real universe and the natural earth.
When we say "That tree is beautiful," we are not saying anything about the tree in itself, but about the way we feel we must respond to the tree. We are talking about the relationship between us and the tree.
In the same way, if we say THE UNIVERSE IS DIVINE we are making a statement about the way our senses and our emotions force us to respond to the overwhelming mystery and power that surrounds us. We are saying this:
We are made of the same matter as the universe. We are not in exile here: we are at home. It is here and nowhere else that we can see the divine face to face. If we erect barriers in our imagination - if we believe our real home is not here but in a land that lies beyond death - if we believe that the divine is found only in old books, or old buildings, or inside our head - then we will see this real, vibrant, luminous world as if through a glass darkly.
The universe creates us, preserves us, destroys us. It is deep and old beyond our ability to reach with our senses. It is beautiful beyond our ability to describe in words. It is complex beyond our ability to fully grasp in science. We must relate to the universe with humility, awe, reverence, celebration and the search for deeper understanding - in other words, in many of the ways that believers relate to their God.
When we say THE EARTH IS SACRED, we mean it with just as much commitment and reverence as believers speaking about their church or mosque, or the relics of their saints. But we are not making a statement about the supernatural. We are saying this:
Nature is our mother, our home, our security, our peace, our past and our future. We should treat natural things and habitats as believers treat their temples and shrines, as sacred - to be revered and preserved in all their intricate and fragile beauty.
The dominant religions describe their gods in many ways: mysterious, awesome, all-powerful, omnipresent, transcendent, infinite, eternal. These descriptions are not simply projections of human characteristics. The traditional attributes of God are based on the real properties of the universe.
When theists worship gods, they unknowingly worship the cosmos. If they believe that God is also present in nature and the universe, they will perceive a part of the glory of Being, yet still they will attribute this glory to something beyond Being. Still they will fail to connect with nature and the universe in the deep intense way that pantheism makes possible.
But theists who believe that God is separate from the universe separate themselves from Reality. They turn their deepest attention away from the real divinity before their eyes, towards an imaginary divinity inside their head. It veils Reality like a thick mist. It turns believers into sleepwalkers.
i already said that in much smaller words and they didn't get it then. i doubt much will change this time around.
Slowmutant:
I know you’re primarily arguing with Odin but I’ll give you my own reason for not believing in a personal god.
Actually, reading the book of Job give me this epiphany. It’s a story of a man struggling to grasp how a personal god can be so impersonal. In order to explain the inherent unfairness of his circumstances Job has to assume that god is merely testing him and everything will come out alright in the end. Only in real life the story more often doesn’t have a happy ending.
It seems so much more likely to me that humans had to invent this cruel and capricious side to God in order to explain the impersonal cruelty of nature. Yet the Abrahamic religion's solution is to divert people’s minds from this side of God. They give god credit for all the good and beauty in the world, but come up with ad hoc justifications for the all the bad and ugly. Basically throw objectivity out the window so we can feel good.
At least the Mystic religions are willing to admit that God has a dark side, and that the universe was never intended to be fair and peachy. For this reason those religions are more in line with reality IMO.
The Abrahmic God has a dark side, indeed. And we'd be fools to deny it. This dark side is what we call Satan or the Devil. If it's an advantage for a mystic tradition to be nontheistic, it's one of preference. Whatever you're most comfortable with is inherently an advantage. But there's more to religion than mysticism. And mysticism isn't without its shortcomings.
I don't think it's productive to have this defeatist attitude while comparing world religions. If mysticism is the way for you, go ahead and follow that path. I have been a Buddhist myself, and while I relished certain aspects of buddha-dharma, it felt awkward for me not to have someone to pray to. You're mistaken in your belief that monotheists don't have a mystic element to their worship.
techstepgenr8tion
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What does your religion say will happen to me?
This is just my opinion but here it goes.
If God really is omniscient and all-knowing, he created this, he knew what would happen, he'd have the capacity to follow the chain of cause and effect just based on our own limitations, what he gave us as personality types, what we'd be inclined toward, what it would take for us to - in our lives - hit a tipping point in terms of seeing enough of the right things. In other words omniscient, omnipotent, and creator means he'd have to have perfect empathy. Perfect empathy would be a nature which would understand why every atheist is who they are, why they disbelieve in his existence, some have very valid reasons others don't - more relative to how their wired, what's happened to them emotionally, what they've seen or haven't; he left a lot of room in this world for doubt, deliberately, and he knows it. If a person's is being what they were built to be and has not been able to hear a persuasive argument and has wanted to; I can't see him taking it out on em.
God knows atheists are cowards and malcontents. Empathy doesn't mean laxness or stupidity. What kind of a parent ignores the bad behaviour of their child? God is not human, and is entitled to His decisons because He created the universe and literally breathed life into into man's nostrils.
The_Chosen_One
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But why should atheists and non-believers in Jehovah be subject to it's laws (if there is proof of existance...)? A-theistic means that they are not theistic, which means they do not believe. So whether they go to heaven or hell is irrelevent to them, because neither place exists. They might end up somewhere else, or nowhere else; doesn't matter. The only ones who seem to be more worried about the heaven/hell concept are the Christians themselves. And if they are wrong, then they are still going to have to wait until death to find out. I don't KNOW anyone PERSONALLY who has died and came back to tell me of an afterlife, so until there is definite proof, I doubt there is one, Christian or otherwise. I'll stick with my BELIEF of reincarnation, just the same.
_________________
Pagans are people too, not just victims of a religious cleansing program. Universal harmony for all!!
Karma decides what must happen, and that includes everyone.
techstepgenr8tion
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I'm not exactly sure you really know what your saying with that. Everyone's paradigm on reality can be that different to where I don't think someone with perfect empathy could judge a person just on what they've drawn off their best deduction. Atheist doesn't always mean some left-wing crackpot spouting off that the government owes em, nor does it mean someone who just wants to free themselves of religious rules just to get theirs. When people come at this one with ego, it goes nowhere just because ego puts the blinders up when it comes to understanding these sorts of things.
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