The truth about 9/11

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True, and either would be a total disaster if it existed.



No, tyranny comes with true democracy: tyranny of the majority. Equality comes from a sensible republic with separation of powers and an independent judiciary.

Jeremy

Of course I would defend my country if say, the Chinese invaded with an large army and threatened to torture us and enslave us.

However, I do not see a poxy terrorist attack by an ill-equipt group of extremists as a full scale attack on one's country, worthy of international retaliation.

You Americans have never experienced real war. Us Europeans have had our countries overrun many times and our people tortured and enslaved and killed, with a death toll of many millions. That is what real war is. Our grandfathers have been conscripted in armies of both world wars, and that is not just Britain and France, but Germany too. We understand the horrors of war - what it is really like in the trenches. That is why we don't want war - we remember all too well. That is why most of the UK population and certainly France and Germany opposed your little oil crusade in Iraq. We understand what suffering it causes.

You lot have never had your country overrun. Therefore you get all hysterical when a few bombs go off. Its a bit like a vain woman who gets in a tiz about the fact her make-up is slightly off. Its pathetic and trivial. In the Blitz of 1942, virtually the whole of London was destroyed, and we still kept our nerve - we didn't introduce draconian anti-terror legislation - we didn't blow it out of proportion. And because of that, we managed to preserve the ideals of our society.

"You lot have never had your country overrun. Therefore you get all hysterical when a few bombs go off. Its a bit like a vain woman who gets in a tiz about the fact her make-up is slightly off. Its pathetic and trivial. In the Blitz of 1942, virtually the whole of London was destroyed, and we still kept our nerve - we didn't introduce draconian anti-terror legislation - we didn't blow it out of proportion. And because of that, we managed to preserve the ideals of our society."

If it werent for Americans youd be speaking German!

No one is fanatically shouting that the sun is going to rise tomorrow. They know it's going to rise tomorrow. When people are fanatically dedicated to political or religious faiths or any other kinds of dogmas or goals, it's always because these dogmas or goals are in doubt. ~ Robert M. Pirsig

Never experienced "real War"? so Pearl Harbor, and the battles that went on in the US held islands of the Pacific, or the islands off the coast of Alaska dont count? Who do you think was in the trenches with "your grandfathers"?!
OURS as well. Mine, on my fathers side, fought in the Alutians, AND was a paratrooper on D-Day. So do not attempt to think that we, as Americans do not know of war, because we do. WE sacrificed our men and women for lands that werent our own in many places.
Us History is FULL of attacks on OUR HOME SOIL as well.... Not counting the revolution, there is the War of 1812, the Mexican war, the War between the states, The Spanish Amercian War.... As a farily youthful nation we cannot have had hundreds of years of history to reflect on. What we have is the ability, no the RESPONSIBILITY to prevent further attacks on OUR soil by those that threaten our nations very existance. Have you ever, ever, been shot at? Have you ever been in a place that is a "Target" for a terrorist when there is a bomb threat, or ANTHRAX, or ricicn, or another WMD? I have. I know what it is like to literally wonder if Im going to go home in my car, or in little peices in a box. The Terrorists that you think arent a threat. they are. Its not enslavement they desire, its inaliation. Every shift I know that. And everyshift I face the reality that I, as a responder, am a target as is the places I protect. Dont lecture Me on fear, or what is justified. You wear my boots for a few months, and you respond to the stuff that doesnt make the news but is real all the same. And you tell me then that you'd sleep better at night had we never gone to war there. I know how "despensible" I am. But I also know that if we have to respond to a terrorist attack, be that domestic or not, I am going to give all I have, even if it means my life, so jokers like you can sit back and say what ever you like. Son, the cost of freedom is not paid in pennies, its paid in blood. It always has been, and always will be.

As an American whose father served in the Navy in the South Pacific, I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. if I remember right, we lost about 4,000 people when Japan invaded Pearl Harbor. A mere drop in the bucket! (my Dad's ship sailed with the carriers; he wasn't there)

The USSR lost about 25,000,000 people fighting Hitler. Our WWII losses were insignificant compared to that. In fact, our glorious invasion of Normandy was just an attempt to open a second front, in order to take some of the pressure off the USSR. We helped, but the USSR beat Germany, not us.

Both World Wars were fought mostly in Europe. It was pretty much destroyed. There were no bombing raids over our cities, no battles fought on our soil. We got off real easy. Maybe if we had suffered as Europe did, we wouldn't be so anxious to invade everybody.

I'm sorry for starting such a firestorm everyone. I'd agree with what people have said about refraining from personal attacks and saying something nice about the other side and their views, but I feel it would be somewhat hypocritical of me since I'm the one who started the thread in the first place.

Dont be sorry, this has been a chance to argue many points.

no one is disputing the losses, or the number of losses in the war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_casualties_by_country

Stats at that link above.


I think, however, that the idea of war has changed. A man, a single person, (given the resources) can effectively kill or maim as many people single handedly as many a battle ever have. The sacry thing is, that most of those resources can be obtained legally at your local hardware store. Because it is that easy for anyone with any kind of agenda to harm that many people in one action, we have to take any terrorist threat seriously. ESPECALLY if it is comming from a group of radicals that specifically are targeting soft targets.
War has evolved. We arent going to be standing face to face in nice near rows firing shots at one another anymore. The war is being fought with people that look and verywell could be your nextdoor neighbor. its like sending troops disguised as civilians into a population with orders to wipe out that population with a few well placed devices.... what it isnt like that it IS that.
And I think, on the casulities of WWII, that had the US gotten out of that isolationist mood faster, many of those casulities could have been avoided. But we were TOO slow to act then, and you say too fast to act now? I suppose that perfection in war only can exist in neat texts that are used to train the soldiers......

Off-topic. It is not your fault that people are making personal attacks, midge. It is something that they control and no one can control someone else's actions if these actions are to be taken willingly. Conspiracy about 9/11 is an extremely controversial topic and people are bound to have different views. As long as everyone keeps the debate civil, there's nothing wrong with it.

You're right on. This Robert guy, either has no knowledge of U.S. history or thinks he can dismiss it, despite facts, like the U.S (unlike Britain) never had a worldwide empire. And while, you're listing combats, dont forget the French and Indian War of 1763, you could also name the incidents that lead to the war of 1812 (such as the British terrorist like behaviors of kidnapping and enslaving americans on american ships they illegally captured in international waters, of which smiliar murderous attacks led to the assault against the Barbary Coast Pirates in the early 1800's) many indian fights and wars, like Tecumseh, Pontiac, Crazy Horse, and Geronimo, Harper's Ferry, the Hunt for the Terrorist Pancho Villia, shortly before WWI, and in WWII, when the Phillipines were invaded (that was American territory then ), 54-40 Canadian Border disputes, the Phillipino War (right after the Spanish-American war), attacks on american embassies ( like Vietnam, Kenya, and Tehran, (which has happened often and is technically "American Soil" )), Panama Canal ( which was also american soil for nearly a century ), the Hawiian War (before Pearl Harbor), (can we include the various native wars before, during, and after American Soverignty?), in Florida a small civil war broke out in the early 20th century, wehre KKK members fought w/ guns against Blacks and their white friends over a false accusation of rape, thats a few i can think of that you left out.

RobertN, during WW2 there was internment. Germans, Italians, Japanese etc., in both this country and the States, were treated very badly. Of course it was necessary to detain them, though not to treat them as many were.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/ww2/A2473599

Actaully, I woodnt be that suprised. We no they had a motive - at the time, America was struggling to lift itself out of the depression, and as was sed in another thred, involvement in WW2 helped them to do that.

Even if that was true (which as far as i can tell, it isnt), it woodnt be a reeson not to listen to you if you had something to say that was well thort out.

The other people wood eether be discredited as "whacko conspiracy theorists", in your words, or silenced more phisically...



Their STATED goals. Its not a phisical impossibility that someone who claims to be an Islamic extremist coud be lying...



They wood allso be discredited, as known anti-US terrorists merely trying to discredit the US



The Pentagon was only partially damaged, and it made very little difference. As for the White House, Ive often speculated that George Bush mite just be a puppet, becos he obviusly isnt smart enuff to pull off a scheme like this by himself, so who says the puppetmaster wood have to be among the White House staff?

The Pentagon and White House attacks coud have quite eesyly been just a smokescreen, intended to have the very effect they had on you.

This thread should be in the joke column. Who could possibly give such outlandish accusations, serious thought? Anyone can make up conspiracy theories. Any slightly unexplained incident or coincidence can and often is touted as being a conspiracy. In the real world, facts make or break a case, and as yet no one has shown any facts to support such theories, any more than the Clinton conspiracy cover up, where 200 witnesses were supposedly silenced or killed or myteriously died.

It is more possible that the Administration knew of the impending attack, and decided to let it happen.