26 Dec 2008, 7:24 pm
26 Dec 2008, 7:43 pm
26 Dec 2008, 8:00 pm
27 Dec 2008, 3:46 am
MR_BOGAN wrote:
When ragtime goes to sleep tonight, I'm going to break into his house and raid his refrigerator. 
Don't drink the kool-aid
Everchanging
Toucan
Joined: 2 Nov 2007
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 295
Location: In my ivory tower where I don't have to pretend to care what you think any more.
27 Dec 2008, 5:33 am
Thread is tl;dr, BUT...
27 Dec 2008, 6:04 am
27 Dec 2008, 6:41 am
b9 wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
let me answer your question with a short summary of the tale Rashomon (in case you haven't read it):
I guess no further comment needed
Wikipedia wrote:
The man, a lowly servant recently fired, is contemplating whether to starve to death or to become a thief to survive in the barren times. When he goes upstairs - after noticing some firelight there, he encounters a woman, who is stealing hair from the dead bodies in the second floor. He is disgusted, and decides then that he would rather take the path of righteousness even if it meant starvation. He is furious with the woman.
But the old woman tells him that she steals hair to make wigs so she can survive. In addition, the woman whose body she is currently robbing cheated people in her life by selling snake meat and claiming it was fish. The old woman says that this was not wrong because it allowed the woman to survive -- and so in turn this entitles her to steal from the dead person, because if she doesn't, she too will starve. The man responds "You won't blame me, then, for taking your clothes. That's what I have to do to keep from starving to death." He then brutally robs the woman of her robe and disappears into the night.
But the old woman tells him that she steals hair to make wigs so she can survive. In addition, the woman whose body she is currently robbing cheated people in her life by selling snake meat and claiming it was fish. The old woman says that this was not wrong because it allowed the woman to survive -- and so in turn this entitles her to steal from the dead person, because if she doesn't, she too will starve. The man responds "You won't blame me, then, for taking your clothes. That's what I have to do to keep from starving to death." He then brutally robs the woman of her robe and disappears into the night.
I guess no further comment needed
i am sorry but i have not the wits to keep up with the mentage in this thread.
how can one steal from a dead person?
does the dead person wish for the maggots instead to benefit from what otherwise could be devoted to a humans survival? the dead person can surely not retain ownership of anything.
the dead persons family has taken all the valuables from the dead persons house, and then the undertaker gets some nourishment, and then when the casket is lowered, the bacterial world are the beneficiaries.
are bacteria theives? or are they opportunists?
what use do the dead ladies have for their hair?.
The woman may have been stealing from a dead person, but in the eyes of the thief she may as well be dead.
with the survival of the fittest the rest of the world may as well be dead if its only his/her own self that the thief cares about.
where much of our morality comes from (I feel/think) is that of what we want and desire for and of our own children.
after all, what do we teach our children? to share the toys? thats its wrong to steal from mom and dad?
what parent does not tell or teach their own children these things?
27 Dec 2008, 10:38 am
ed wrote:
b9 wrote:
ed wrote:
Ragtime, I deeply resent your concept that it takes a belief in God in order to live a "moral" life..
i am so very tired but i will say that you were made by god. god is the fact that nature works so well.
if you do not believe in the ground you stand upon, then it is just like quicksand.
you will be sucked with every effort you make into an ideational "quicksand" that pulls your mind asunder.
that is a torpor from which few have the wit to escape from.
do try to never be lazy of wit.
do excersize your mind in all circumstances,
Yeah, you should try again after you get some sleep
try what again?
to rephrase my idea?
well the only word i am unhappy about my use of is the word "god" as i am not religious in any way, but i was lazy and used that word to summarize eternal order that is imposed on otherwise chaos.
try what again?
Forsaken wrote:
b9 wrote:
anna-banana wrote:
let me answer your question with a short summary of the tale Rashomon (in case you haven't read it):
I guess no further comment needed
Wikipedia wrote:
The man, a lowly servant recently fired, is contemplating whether to starve to death or to become a thief to survive in the barren times. When he goes upstairs - after noticing some firelight there, he encounters a woman, who is stealing hair from the dead bodies in the second floor. He is disgusted, and decides then that he would rather take the path of righteousness even if it meant starvation. He is furious with the woman.
But the old woman tells him that she steals hair to make wigs so she can survive. In addition, the woman whose body she is currently robbing cheated people in her life by selling snake meat and claiming it was fish. The old woman says that this was not wrong because it allowed the woman to survive -- and so in turn this entitles her to steal from the dead person, because if she doesn't, she too will starve. The man responds "You won't blame me, then, for taking your clothes. That's what I have to do to keep from starving to death." He then brutally robs the woman of her robe and disappears into the night.
But the old woman tells him that she steals hair to make wigs so she can survive. In addition, the woman whose body she is currently robbing cheated people in her life by selling snake meat and claiming it was fish. The old woman says that this was not wrong because it allowed the woman to survive -- and so in turn this entitles her to steal from the dead person, because if she doesn't, she too will starve. The man responds "You won't blame me, then, for taking your clothes. That's what I have to do to keep from starving to death." He then brutally robs the woman of her robe and disappears into the night.
I guess no further comment needed
i am sorry but i have not the wits to keep up with the mentage in this thread.
how can one steal from a dead person?
does the dead person wish for the maggots instead to benefit from what otherwise could be devoted to a humans survival? the dead person can surely not retain ownership of anything.
the dead persons family has taken all the valuables from the dead persons house, and then the undertaker gets some nourishment, and then when the casket is lowered, the bacterial world are the beneficiaries.
are bacteria theives? or are they opportunists?
what use do the dead ladies have for their hair?.
The woman may have been stealing from a dead person, but in the eyes of the thief she may as well be dead.
that does not compute. are you saying "in the eyes of a thief" other than the woman who is stealing hair from corpses?
how many thieves are there in this story?. do other thieves think the woman who steals hair from dead heads may as well be dead herself? i can not identify what you mean.
sorry.
foresaken wrote:
with the survival of the fittest the rest of the world may as well be dead if its only his/her own self that the thief cares about.
i sort of agree. but the thief wants the world to be alive and prosperous so he may steal easily.
foresaken wrote:
where much of our morality comes from (I feel/think) is that of what we w
ant and desire for and of our own children.
ant and desire for and of our own children.
i have no interest in children. they confuse me.
foresaken wrote:
after all, what do we teach our children? to share the toys? thats its wrong to steal from mom and dad?
what parent does not tell or teach their own children these things?
what parent does not tell or teach their own children these things?
well if i had a child, they would have all they wanted because they would be insistent for me to provide for their needs and desires, and i would not be able to refuse them. i guess i would love any children i made, but i do not wish for children as i am not mature enough to provide moral support to them.
Last edited by b9 on 27 Dec 2008, 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
27 Dec 2008, 11:10 am
b9 wrote:
ed wrote:
with the survival of the fittest the rest of the world may as well be dead if its only his/her own self that the thief cares about.
i sort of agree. but the thief wants the world to be alive and prosperous so he may steal easily.
ed wrote:
where much of our morality comes from (I feel/think) is that of what we want and desire for and of our own children.
i have no interest in children. they confuse me.
ed wrote:
after all, what do we teach our children? to share the toys? thats its wrong to steal from mom and dad?
what parent does not tell or teach their own children these things?
what parent does not tell or teach their own children these things?
well if i had a child, they would have all they wanted because they would be insistent for me to provide for their needs and desires, and i would not be able to refuse them. i guess i would love any children i made, but i do not wish for children as i am not mature enough to provide moral support to them.
Sorry, b9, I didn't say any of those things... you must be quoting someone else.
27 Dec 2008, 11:14 am
Why would anyone want to steal hair from corpses in the first place? 
27 Dec 2008, 11:19 am
ed wrote:
Sorry, b9, I didn't say any of those things... you must be quoting someone else.
yes i pasted your name inaccurately against the last 3 quotes in my post. i am silly i will correct it now.
27 Dec 2008, 2:49 pm
Ragtime wrote:
history_of_psychiatry wrote:
Stealing is a MORAL issue. Not a religious issue. There are atheists that have morals and atheists who don't. There are christians who have morals and christians who don't.
Yes, but the difference is that atheists can't logically support morals, beyond morality being merely a personal preference,
and thus something a thief can vaildly reject for himself, because when he says that stealing isn't "wrong for him",
any atheist's argument against that sentiment is not based on anything that is even logically compatible with atheism.
With atheism, you are left with believing in evolution, which teaches survival of the fittest as the one and only way that progress (evolution) occurs, whether we like it or not.
I.e., when you and your friend are starving in the desert, it's best to kill him and take his food and water. An atheist cannot call that even slightly wrong, and back up his statement with reason. After all, you're doing this to survive, so it's fully defensible to those who put a premium on survival, and to anyone who accepts survival of the fittest as the reigning concept of life. In fact, attacking your potential competition ruthlessly is what you should do based on the evolutionary theory of how progress is made: you're simply advancing the species by taking every cruel advantage you can of other people, by the evolutionary model. Who can sat you are in the wrong except a religious person? No one. The quote, "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" is what we're left with: pure moral relativism, when stealing isn't wrong, but is rather just someone else's version of what is right.
Stealing is survival of the fittest:
It's the smarter and/or more powerful annexing the property of the less intelligent and/or weaker for one's own furtherance.
That's simply the way life works, under the evolutionary model: Attack them before they attack you.
There is no rational defense of morality within an atheistic framework. Anything deemed "morality" must come from outside atheism, and indeed from outside the physical world itself. For physical survival (which is the only kind atheists believe in), simple expediency is best: morality when it benefits you materially, and immorality when it benefits you materially.
Ragtime, you sound like a nihilist
27 Dec 2008, 2:54 pm
Ragtime wrote:
As a Christian, I do believe stealing is wrong, but I also believe that, from an atheistic/evolutionary standpoint, stealing can be justified just as strongly as it can be attacked. What do you think?
So stealing is wrong simply because The Lord said so?
27 Dec 2008, 9:54 pm
Haliphron wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
As a Christian, I do believe stealing is wrong, but I also believe that, from an atheistic/evolutionary standpoint, stealing can be justified just as strongly as it can be attacked. What do you think?
So stealing is wrong simply because The Lord said so?
Yes.
27 Dec 2008, 10:00 pm
slowmutant wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
As a Christian, I do believe stealing is wrong, but I also believe that, from an atheistic/evolutionary standpoint, stealing can be justified just as strongly as it can be attacked. What do you think?
So stealing is wrong simply because The Lord said so?
Yes.
But whyyyyy?
27 Dec 2008, 10:19 pm
twoshots wrote:
slowmutant wrote:
Haliphron wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
As a Christian, I do believe stealing is wrong, but I also believe that, from an atheistic/evolutionary standpoint, stealing can be justified just as strongly as it can be attacked. What do you think?
So stealing is wrong simply because The Lord said so?
Yes.
But whyyyyy?
Because stealing is wrong. It's both a crime and a sin.
Why?
You'll be able to tell me after someone makes off with your PS2 or your Yu-Gi-Oh cards.
