20 May 2009, 1:01 pm
ed wrote:
I'm not attacking the conclusion. They want to pass the buck on to the politicians. Well, they work for us ( 
), so I say to them if you want to make it illegal, you write out the outline of such a bill and let them vote on it. Of course any bill outlawing something must also set the penalty for it, that's only common sense, so that would obviously have to be part of their bill.
), so I say to them if you want to make it illegal, you write out the outline of such a bill and let them vote on it. Of course any bill outlawing something must also set the penalty for it, that's only common sense, so that would obviously have to be part of their bill. Ah I see. I suppose that makes sense, but (as far as I know) nobody in this thread is responsible for draughting such bills, so the question isn't really landing on their table.
ed wrote:
As for attacking the premise "abortion is murder," that is like this: 
You're right of course.ed wrote:
This new approach I've discovered would force them to put all their cards on the table, which I believe would cause their newfound public support to collapse. The fact that they all left the table so suddenly tells me that I'm right
They might just not have looked at this thread again though. I don't know.
I would have assumed though, that they could just say, "It's murder, so it should be treated as such," (like Orwell suggested earlier).
~
EDIT
ed wrote:
...though I think the place to attack them is from the side, using their own argument that abortion is murder. If they want us to accept this premise, then we should point out that both the doctor and the patient would have to go to prison for life, because that's what we do to murderers.
Then we can attack them on the basis of the immense harm their law would cause, and thus the absurdity of their proposed solution.
Then we can attack them on the basis of the immense harm their law would cause, and thus the absurdity of their proposed solution.
I can imagine them saying that it wouldn't cause harm if people obeyed the law.
20 May 2009, 1:04 pm
20 May 2009, 1:18 pm
20 May 2009, 1:19 pm
McTell wrote:
They might just not have looked at this thread again though. I don't know.
That's possible, but AwesomelyGlorious and someone else were arguing their pro-life views very forcefully until I posted about telling us the penalty for violating their proposed law, and suddenly they vanished. I plan to attack the pro-life argument again and again on that point, whenever I find pro-lifers voicing the argument that abortion is murder.
They might be able to pass a national referendum that says "abortion should be made illegal," because it is so vague, but they'd lose in a landslide if they ever proposed a referendum saying "abortion is murder," precisely because the consequences of enacting such a proposal would be so disastrous!
20 May 2009, 1:43 pm
claire333 wrote:
Ahh...this reminds me of the last abortion thread where Henriksson suggested pro-death and I suggested anti-compassion.
Oh right... I remember now...
20 May 2009, 1:46 pm
ed wrote:
McTell wrote:
They might just not have looked at this thread again though. I don't know.
That's possible, but AwesomelyGlorious and someone else were arguing their pro-life views very forcefully until I posted about telling us the penalty for violating their proposed law, and suddenly they vanished. I plan to attack the pro-life argument again and again on that point, whenever I find pro-lifers voicing the argument that abortion is murder.
They might be able to pass a national referendum that says "abortion should be made illegal," because it is so vague, but they'd lose in a landslide if they ever proposed a referendum saying "abortion is murder," precisely because the consequences of enacting such a proposal would be so disastrous!
I actually don't propose a law, and very rarely ever do propose laws for pre-existent ideological reasons, and actually, I don't even think I am pro-life. I dunno my stance too well, but actually... I suppose if pushed I would actually side with the human extinction movement, which is not only not pro-life, but actually anti-life.
20 May 2009, 1:49 pm
20 May 2009, 1:53 pm
Awesomelyglorious wrote:
ed wrote:
...though I think the place to attack them is from the side, using their own argument that abortion is murder. If they want us to accept this premise, then we should point out that both the doctor and the patient would have to go to prison for life, because that's what we do to murderers.
Then we can attack them on the basis of the immense harm their law would cause, and thus the absurdity of their proposed solution.
Then we can attack them on the basis of the immense harm their law would cause, and thus the absurdity of their proposed solution.
Well, I think the way around this though, is for them to claim that illegalizing abortion on any ground is what they want in the short-run, and that they hope that when societal norms start adjusting more and more to the fact that abortion is wrong and illegal, the intensity of punishment for abortion can increase steadily.
This makes them not in favor of an immediate change from legal to murder, but rather a gradual change that wouldn't look as ugly to onlookers. It would likely also be acceptable according to their prior moral commitments.
sorta like putting a frog in cold water and then heating the water, as opposed to putting it in hot water to begin with
20 May 2009, 2:04 pm
20 May 2009, 2:08 pm
ed wrote:
sorta like putting a frog in cold water and then heating the water, as opposed to putting it in hot water to begin with
Absolutely, however, not necessarily to be taken with as much of the cooking analogy. Change over time is how society tends to work, not by massive leaps, so just trying to utterly revolutionize things over night would be silly.
20 May 2009, 2:17 pm
Ancalagon wrote:
You never did answer my question about what the punishment should be for attempted suicide.
I didn't think you were serious
I don't think attempted suicide should be considered a crime at all.
20 May 2009, 2:19 pm
20 May 2009, 2:21 pm
20 May 2009, 2:22 pm
20 May 2009, 2:27 pm
20 May 2009, 2:30 pm
