On School Prayer and the Pledge

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MattShizzle
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27 May 2009, 6:30 pm

Good point. Nationalism is a bad thing most of the time.

Orwell
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27 May 2009, 8:57 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:

I do I just don't like that people here insult it so much.

Same here. I get quite annoyed with the militant atheist crowd, but the appropriate response isn't to force religion on schoolchildren who may or may not be interested in what Christianity has to say.

Quote:

You don't seem like one but then thats not my judgement to make.

Sheesh. I'm a godless heathen to every fundie and a religious wacko to every atheist.

Quote:

I'm not shoving it down peoples throats I am mearly giving a message and leaving it for you people.

I thought you'd been pushing for school prayer? That is shoving it down people's throats. Having mandatory prayer times in school is not appropriate. In a secular society, the government can not interfere in religious matters. To ensure religious freedom, the state must be agnostic.

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MattShizzle
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27 May 2009, 9:40 pm

Orwell wrote:

You don't seem like one but then thats not my judgement to make.

Sheesh. I'm a godless heathen to every fundie and a religious wacko to every atheist.

[/quote]

If all Christians were like you things would be better.

vibratetogether
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27 May 2009, 10:06 pm

MattShizzle wrote:

If all Christians were like you things would be better.

Agreed.

Orwell
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27 May 2009, 10:12 pm

vibratetogether wrote:

MattShizzle wrote:

If all Christians were like you things would be better.

Agreed.

Oh, of course, if everyone were like me all the world's problems would be solved. :roll:

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Magnus
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28 May 2009, 12:44 am

Raise your right hand and place it over your heart.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag...
Of the United States of America.

Quote:

I was just born here. Patriotism is the cause of more human casualties than any religion. Swearing this statement obligates a person to patriotism. It's brainwashing. Children should be given a choice as they do not have a choice as to which country they are born into.

And to the Republic for which it stands...

Quote:

Whatever that means :roll:

One Nation

Quote:

There are many nations in the world. Why do children have to swear to one nation? That is exclusive and perpetuates a provincial attitude in the scheme of the world.

Under God

Quote:

Yeah, that should go because it's assumed it's the Christian God (Yahweh) who is in fact the devil.

Indivisible

Quote:

That is good. We should keep that. Maybe we can add, individual.

With Liberty

Quote:

That's good too.

and Justice for all."

Quote:

Even though it's not true, it's a great ideal for the US nation so we should keep that.

Can we change it to,

Quote:

"I pledge allegiance to the individual,
which is indivisible,
and to Liberty
and Justice for All."

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Magnus
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28 May 2009, 12:48 am

Quote:

Shadowgirl wrote:
If you don't like it you can always live in a commie country that kills people like us.

MattShizzle wrote:
The 1950s called. They want their line back.

*Chuckle*

Dussel
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28 May 2009, 1:27 am

Magnus wrote:

Raise your right hand and place it over your heart.

"I pledge allegiance to the flag...
Of the United States of America.

This raises a question: What is a flag. Napoleon famously said that a throne is nothing more than an overdecorated piece of furniture. A flag is a piece of fabric - nothing really special.

Magnus wrote:

And to the Republic for which it stands...

Without any condition? Even the British Oat of Allegiance to the Queen has one condition: "... according to law." If the queen is in breach of the law, the allegiance will be void.

Magnus wrote:

One Nation

A nation? A nation is something made by diplomats on green tables - the rest are myths. The USA are the result of the horse trading between Louis XVI and George III.

The "nation" is an administrative union - perhaps a reasonable institution, but does not deserve more emotions like the fire brigade. The former German President Gustav Heineman was ones famously asked "Do love Germany?" His answer was "I love my wife."

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28 May 2009, 1:39 am

Good answer. An even better one would be, "I love myself". The best answer would be,
"I love everyone."

Ancalagon
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28 May 2009, 2:51 pm

Dussel wrote:

This raises a question: What is a flag. Napoleon famously said that a throne is nothing more than an overdecorated piece of furniture. A flag is a piece of fabric - nothing really special.

A flag is a symbol. The cloth it's attached to is irrelevant.

Nobody burns a bedsheet to protest a political decision they don't like, or salutes an apron out of respect, even though they are made of cloth.

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ed
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28 May 2009, 5:55 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

A flag is a symbol.

As George Carlin used to say, we'll leave symbols to the symbol minded :lol:

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Shadowgirl
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28 May 2009, 7:36 pm

Orwell wrote:

Shadowgirl wrote:

I do I just don't like that people here insult it so much.

Quote:

You don't seem like one but then thats not my judgement to make.

Sheesh. I'm a godless heathen to every fundie and a religious wacko to every atheist.

Quote:

I'm not shoving it down peoples throats I am mearly giving a message and leaving it for you people.

As a matter of fact I do push for school prayer. Plus in my school we have Christian organizations so we can have optional prayer.
If someone doesn't like it they should just be respectful to those who want it and leave us alone.

Well your wrong because then there are no real sets of morals.

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Shadowgirl
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28 May 2009, 7:44 pm

MattShizzle wrote:

Orwell wrote:

You don't seem like one but then thats not my judgement to make.

Sheesh. I'm a godless heathen to every fundie and a religious wacko to every atheist.

If all Christians were like you things would be better.[/quote]

You mean quiet and bowing down to atheist that's not what Jesus would do.

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Last edited by Shadowgirl on 28 May 2009, 7:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

MattShizzle
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28 May 2009, 7:48 pm

I mean not forcing your mythology down everyone else's throat.

Shadowgirl
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28 May 2009, 7:50 pm

MattShizzle wrote:

I mean not forcing your mythology down everyone else's throat.

FYI I'm not shoving it down anyones throat I'm giving the message and offering it.

Atheism is mythology and will get you no where good. You want to believe it then fine.

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Orwell
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28 May 2009, 8:04 pm

Shadowgirl wrote:

As a matter of fact I do push for school prayer.

That is shoving it down people's throats, and it's a violation of freedom of religion. If the state has the power to enforce a religion, you have to consider the possibility that they choose a religion that you don't believe in.

Quote:

Plus in my school we have Christian organizations so we can have optional prayer.

No problem with that whatsoever.

Quote:

If someone doesn't like it they should just be respectful to those who want it and leave us alone.

And if someone doesn't want it, we should just be respectful and leave them alone.

Quote:

Well your wrong because then there are no real sets of morals.

I don't think the state should be in the business of legislating morality.

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