"Cap and Trade"

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I'm surprised there hasn't been a thread on this yet. Though I suppose this bill has been covered up by all the unimportant crap about Michael Jackson. We have our corporate news media friends to thank for that.
Anyway, Congress just passed this "cap and trade" bill which is just a huge carbon tax. Apparently it'll be the largest tax increase in American history (if it gets through the Senate).

What do you all think of this? I think it's stupid, because we're in the beginning of a depression. Not to mention it's supposedly to combat man-made global warming, a concept which is a load of crap.

its good because of dissuasion. You can either A. not just simply dump CO2 into the atmosphere OR B. Keep dumping but have to pay taxes with what little money you have. Its a littering fine in essence, because you can either A. find a proper disposal bin for your trash or B. Throw it out the window of your car and have to pay a fine. It works because people don't want to have to pay $500 just because they chucked a wrapper out the window.

This bill will totally f**k up the American economy, because the cap-credits can be traded just like stock on a private market. It's even worse than taxes because this thing is basically taxes which will be arbitrarily set by banks and speculators and only those participants, not actually the government or some environment institution, will profit from those taxes.

And the best thing about it? The cap is set up to be constantly lowered over the years, meaning those credits will steadily rise in price. And as they rise in price, guess who's going to pay for them? Hint: it's not the government or the companies

The wierd thing is we're clinging to global warming more obstinately than most of our contemporaries, much like we're clining to a nanny state dream and its being brought closer and closer while western Europe and Canada is trying to do just the opposite.

Cap and trade systems have been established in Europe already (ableit teethless versions).

Canada doesn't have a coherent policy at all: the Government is deadlocked between minority Conservatives struggling with (more or less election fearful) Liberals, with the NDP and Bloc acting for more assertive actions.

A Canadian Carbon Tax has already been initiated in BC (albeit by the neoliberal BC Liberal Party) and it's proving quite popular.

And can we please stop with the "global warming is false" conspirarcy nonesense? It's about time that such climate change denialism be placed in a dust heap with creationism, flat earthism, geocentrism, anti-vaccine propropoganda, and other such harmful anti-science.

Man, I hate rightwing rhetoric.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo-yekQY91g[/youtube]

I know you'd like to put it on the same level as flat-earth, geocentrism, etc. but isn't the number of skeptics, particularly in the sciences, actually growing?

And, in terms of policy, a carbon tax is genius for many reasons:

1) America's in a bloody collosal deficit. If a budget surplus means a tax excess (as far-right ultraconservative anti-tax demagoges love to proclaim) than a budget deficit must mean a tax deficit. It's stupid to go into a depression with a structural deficit.
2) Shifts the tax burden from income to carbon consumption. And it can be a progressive tax, for the 2008-2009 fiscal year the BC Carbon Tax scheme gave low-income families less net taxation due to credits (see details here). The tax, without credit system reform, will become regressive by the 2010-2011 fiscal year (but sufficient tax credit reform will do away with that problem.

Now, to readdress some thoughts that instantly spring up over references to Canada. OUR COUNTRY IS RELATIVELY UNHARMED BY THE DEPRESSION BECAUSE BANK MERGERS AND UNREGULATED RISK TAKING WERE BARRED BY AN ECONOMICALLY ACTIVIST FINANCIAL POLICY.

Let's just here the Conservative PM compare Canada to America, shall we?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_81JYoC-BN0[/youtube]

It should be noted that Obama is more favourable to most Canadians than Harper.

There's a bloody anthropogenic climate change crisis looming. A cap and trade system without a carbon tax (a scheme implemented in Europe) has too many loopholes. Because meism-conservatives are quasy about a carbon tax is no reason why this idea's time hasn't come. Unrestrained greed and poorly regulated capitalism got us into the situation. Ultraconservatism should, more than anything, be discredited due to the turn of events.

I have seen no report of increase in scientists who are skeptics of climate change. Perhaps anthropogenic climate change skeptics are getting more media attention (especially on Faux News), but each successive Intergovernmental Pannel on Climate Change report is becomming more stern in its predictions.

Harper's head will be on a platter, if not next election then the election after it. While the current Leader of the Opposition in Canada is a more rightward member of the Liberal Party (who also happens to support a carbon tax) and very distrusted because he spent 34 years out of Canada before jumping into Canadian politics two years ago, Stephen Harper is not loved either and will be remembered as the leader who ran Canada into a budget deficit after years of surpluses. The fact he's at the reins during a time when the economy will only certainly get worse can only further hurt his prospects.

I like it. It's about time the yanks take responsibility for what they do.

And there's a side benefit too.

If you look in Canada, the Federal Liberal Party had a carbon tax and cap/trade system as part of their platform (called the Green Shift). The NDP, running a populist plank, opposed the Greenshift (but did offer a cap and trade system without a carbon tax).

The Liberal plan included income tax cuts in the form of tax credits due to offset the carbon tax. The BC pronvincial Liberal Party initated the plan and for the 2008-2009 fiscal year it was beneficial to low-income families.

What was the revenue also used for? Green technology R&D.

So, by instituting a carbon tax an Obama administration could (if he had the proper progressive priorities) initate a Green Job strategy transforming the economy and developing alternative infastructure. He could also invest in social welfare, which creates demand, which gets us out of a depression.

You think we're bad? Wait till the Chinese get into high gear. Right now they are completing a coal burning power generating plant every other month. By 2010 the Chinese will be the the greatest producers of CO2.

ruveyn

Which is why we G7 countries better get into high gear reducing carbon emissions and developing alternative green technologies (as well as international carbon regulatory systems) before China goes through the same process we went through to industrialize, thus burding the planet exponentially more times than it already is.

They already are, actually. But the per capita is way more higher for America than China...


List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita
[wide image replaced with thumbnail and link to article, by lau]

1) Congress didn't pass anything yet. The House of Reps did - not sure what the Senate will do.
2) The Republican talking point "the largest tax increase in history" is based on wildly inflated estimates of the cost - their estimates come from an analysis of a discarded plan, and are 20x or more higher than the cost of the plan on the table.
3) Burning fossil fuels has externalities - costs that are not reflected in the market price of a fuel. A cap and trade system will partially internalize those costs.
4) Even if you don't believe in anthropogenic global warming, you might believe in mercury in coal, the folly of depending on imported oil, or the idea of peak oil. Cap and trade will provide funding for a transition to other sources of energy and help deal with these issues.

^ Darn Swede, comming from a country without environmental hypocrisy!

He can stand on a higher hill than I in pointing out other countries climate faults!

actaully, China just surpassed the US in CO2 emissions due to the surge in construction projects