Religious but otherwise sensible and intelitgent people

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DentArthurDent
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14 Aug 2009, 5:09 am

I dont get it, I watch the news and I see the 'Leader of the Free World' who for once is an obviously intelligent, well read and grounded person, who goes about his business in a reasonably objective and analytical fashion. Now this man on the TV talks about god but to my bemusement he does not talk about the fallacy of god but instead talks about his belief in god.

Two days ago a bunch of highly educated Rabbis flew all over Israel chanting prayers at 'god'' when they landed they proclaimed that the state of Israel was now protected from swine flu.

Here in Australia we have some seriously intelligent and well educated Parliamentarians who are devout believers in 'god'

For millennia the bible was and still is accredited as the 'true word of god' during the middle ages great thinkers were put to death for questioning various aspects of its voracity. Since then science has continuously ripped away at its credibility and yet still people believe this drivel. So which bits are the word of 'god' and which bits are not. Either it is the word of a super being or it is a compilation of superstitious beliefs from people that did not understand the natural environment, it cannot be both

So to sum up, I just do not understand how otherwise intelligent, objective and analytical people can believe in such superstitious clap trap from and age of unenlightened ignorance


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Sand
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14 Aug 2009, 5:39 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
I dont get it, I watch the news and I see the 'Leader of the Free World' who for once is an obviously intelligent, well read and grounded person, who goes about his business in a reasonably objective and analytical fashion. Now this man on the TV talks about god but to my bemusement he does not talk about the fallacy of god but instead talks about his belief in god.

Two days ago a bunch of highly educated Rabbis flew all over Israel chanting prayers at 'god'' when they landed they proclaimed that the state of Israel was now protected from swine flu.

Here in Australia we have some seriously intelligent and well educated Parliamentarians who are devout believers in 'god'

For millennia the bible was and still is accredited as the 'true word of god' during the middle ages great thinkers were put to death for questioning various aspects of its voracity. Since then science has continuously ripped away at its credibility and yet still people believe this drivel. So which bits are the word of 'god' and which bits are not. Either it is the word of a super being or it is a compilation of superstitious beliefs from people that did not understand the natural environment, it cannot be both

So to sum up, I just do not understand how otherwise intelligent, objective and analytical people can believe in such superstitious clap trap from and age of unenlightened ignorance


I don't pretend to be able to read the inner thoughts of intelligent people but frequently what they say has little to what they believe. People like politicians and others dependent upon masses of people for their positions are not likely to be too frank about their personal beliefs.



iamnotaparakeet
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14 Aug 2009, 5:42 am

"Either it is the word of a super being or it is a compilation of superstitious beliefs from people that did not understand the natural environment, it cannot be both."


Much of the Bible is historical narrative, mostly concerning the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, their sinfulness and God's patience and mercy, but justice also after a few centuries of putting up with crap. There's also the books of prophecy, such as Isaiah, Zechariah, et al. And the letters from Paul to the first Churches in the first century A.D. as well a couple from Peter and John, and one from James the half-brother of Jesus. I'm not sure what your definition of "superstitious" is, but I kinda doubt you have read very much inside the Bible as you probably have about the Bible. Though if you've actually read the Bible, I'm sure you or someone else will pull some that normal intellectual snobbery typical to Atheists, which is very convincing as peer pressure in person but not so much over the internet or on paper, whereby the claim of my stupidity and some random person's hyperintelligence and master race superiority of mental prowess will be made.



Sand
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14 Aug 2009, 6:02 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
"Either it is the word of a super being or it is a compilation of superstitious beliefs from people that did not understand the natural environment, it cannot be both."


Much of the Bible is historical narrative, mostly concerning the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, their sinfulness and God's patience and mercy, but justice also after a few centuries of putting up with crap. There's also the books of prophecy, such as Isaiah, Zechariah, et al. And the letters from Paul to the first Churches in the first century A.D. as well a couple from Peter and John, and one from James the half-brother of Jesus. I'm not sure what your definition of "superstitious" is, but I kinda doubt you have read very much inside the Bible as you probably have about the Bible. Though if you've actually read the Bible, I'm sure you or someone else will pull some that normal intellectual snobbery typical to Atheists, which is very convincing as peer pressure in person but not so much over the internet or on paper, whereby the claim of my stupidity and some random person's hyperintelligence and master race superiority of mental prowess will be made.


For somebody adherent to the majority belief you seem to feel pretty oppressed.



iamnotaparakeet
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14 Aug 2009, 6:19 am

Sand wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
"Either it is the word of a super being or it is a compilation of superstitious beliefs from people that did not understand the natural environment, it cannot be both."


Much of the Bible is historical narrative, mostly concerning the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, their sinfulness and God's patience and mercy, but justice also after a few centuries of putting up with crap. There's also the books of prophecy, such as Isaiah, Zechariah, et al. And the letters from Paul to the first Churches in the first century A.D. as well a couple from Peter and John, and one from James the half-brother of Jesus. I'm not sure what your definition of "superstitious" is, but I kinda doubt you have read very much inside the Bible as you probably have about the Bible. Though if you've actually read the Bible, I'm sure you or someone else will pull some that normal intellectual snobbery typical to Atheists, which is very convincing as peer pressure in person but not so much over the internet or on paper, whereby the claim of my stupidity and some random person's hyperintelligence and master race superiority of mental prowess will be made.


For somebody adherent to the majority belief you seem to feel pretty oppressed.


Here in America, the majority doesn't matter in terms of anything. Not unless you are in congress or in senate making a vote. Really though, I don't notice too many people in my area of Minneapolis expressing Christianity vocally. And if they did, they are usually mocked or scoffed at. Otherwise ignored. Where I last lived, in Jordan MN, a lot of people had religious backgrounds which they didn't care about. Majority on a statistic or a census means very little in my opinion. Heck, even when I lived in Texas most people there were secular as well.



zer0netgain
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14 Aug 2009, 6:55 am

DentArthurDent wrote:
So to sum up, I just do not understand how otherwise intelligent, objective and analytical people can believe in such superstitious clap trap from and age of unenlightened ignorance


Likewise, I can not understand how otherwise intelligent, objective and analytical people can utterly dismiss the POSSIBILITY of a supernatural being who created all that we see around us.

If you are logical, that option must be on the table or you are practicing a logic fallacy. A rigged debate is not a debate.



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14 Aug 2009, 8:01 am

Sand wrote:

So to sum up, I just do not understand how otherwise intelligent, objective and analytical people can believe in such superstitious clap trap from and age of unenlightened ignorance


I don't pretend to be able to read the inner thoughts of intelligent people but frequently what they say has little to what they believe. People like politicians and others dependent upon masses of people for their positions are not likely to be too frank about their personal beliefs.[/quote]

In a word (two words, actually): they lie.

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CaroleTucson
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14 Aug 2009, 8:50 am

What I don't understand is why otherwise intelligent people continue to fan the flames of this "debate". You know there's no resolution to it ... why keep stirring it up? It's just attention-getting.

I like what someone here commented in an earlier thread .... those who whine and rant against religion are just as boring as those who whine and rant for it.



Sand
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14 Aug 2009, 8:58 am

CaroleTucson wrote:
What I don't understand is why otherwise intelligent people continue to fan the flames of this "debate". You know there's no resolution to it ... why keep stirring it up? It's just attention-getting.

I like what someone here commented in an earlier thread .... those who whine and rant against religion are just as boring as those who whine and rant for it.


Do I detect a certain preference for a certain species of whining and ranting?



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14 Aug 2009, 9:09 am

CaroleTucson wrote:
I like what someone here commented in an earlier thread .... those who whine and rant against religion are just as boring as those who whine and rant for it.


Enthusiastic adherents of certain religions are inspired to commit deadly acts. People who are not religious are rarely inspired to be harmful by their non-religion.

When was the last time a band of atheists hijacked an airplane and crashed it into a tall building? When was the last time a convinced atheist strapped on a bomb and blew himself and several innocent people to smithereens?

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iamnotaparakeet
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14 Aug 2009, 9:17 am

Sand wrote:
CaroleTucson wrote:
What I don't understand is why otherwise intelligent people continue to fan the flames of this "debate". You know there's no resolution to it ... why keep stirring it up? It's just attention-getting.

I like what someone here commented in an earlier thread .... those who whine and rant against religion are just as boring as those who whine and rant for it.


Do I detect a certain preference for a certain species of whining and ranting?


People always see what they want to though, and imagine what they can't see. That's the basic principle behind what M. Night Shaymalan was trying to do in Signs by having noises without showing their sources. The imagination can create horrors worse than CGI, all it takes is the suggestive hint of a terror to drive it. Here, the suggestion that whining in any form is annoying precludes whining against religion. That is undesirable for those who want to whine about other people's beliefs, so the next step is to make an insinuation about the person who is tired of the whining.



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14 Aug 2009, 9:18 am

Enthusiastic adherant of "any train of through" can be construed as dumbasses and do god awful things.

Nazis killed jews for socialism. Russians killed beurgois in the name of communism. The French and the English killed eachother for a hundred years in the name of prestige. Religious people aren't the only people capable of being whackjobs. They're just the most likely at the current moment.

Heck, there is even ECO-terrorism.


As to the original thread. I am an atheist, and as such am not much of a fan of spirituality in any of its forms. But there are far better ways to go about it than veiled insults via intimating that religious people can not be sensible or intelligent.



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14 Aug 2009, 9:20 am

ruveyn wrote:
CaroleTucson wrote:
I like what someone here commented in an earlier thread .... those who whine and rant against religion are just as boring as those who whine and rant for it.


Enthusiastic adherents of certain religions are inspired to commit deadly acts. People who are not religious are rarely inspired to be harmful by their non-religion.

When was the last time a band of atheists hijacked an airplane and crashed it into a tall building? When was the last time a convinced atheist strapped on a bomb and blew himself and several innocent people to smithereens?

ruveyn


When was the last time a group of Atheists shot up a school in Colorado, lined up students at gunpoint, asked each one "do you believe in God?" and executed those who answered "yes."?



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14 Aug 2009, 10:16 am

Sand wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
"Either it is the word of a super being or it is a compilation of superstitious beliefs from people that did not understand the natural environment, it cannot be both."


Much of the Bible is historical narrative, mostly concerning the kingdoms of Israel and Judah, their sinfulness and God's patience and mercy, but justice also after a few centuries of putting up with crap. There's also the books of prophecy, such as Isaiah, Zechariah, et al. And the letters from Paul to the first Churches in the first century A.D. as well a couple from Peter and John, and one from James the half-brother of Jesus. I'm not sure what your definition of "superstitious" is, but I kinda doubt you have read very much inside the Bible as you probably have about the Bible. Though if you've actually read the Bible, I'm sure you or someone else will pull some that normal intellectual snobbery typical to Atheists, which is very convincing as peer pressure in person but not so much over the internet or on paper, whereby the claim of my stupidity and some random person's hyperintelligence and master race superiority of mental prowess will be made.


For somebody adherent to the majority belief you seem to feel pretty oppressed.


it's how christians get away with murder here. they cry out about being oppressed while they're the ones in control of everything.

the ironic part being that their cries of oppression are merely just them being duped by their "spiritual" leaders (aka, slave owners).


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14 Aug 2009, 10:32 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

When was the last time a group of Atheists shot up a school in Colorado, lined up students at gunpoint, asked each one "do you believe in God?" and executed those who answered "yes."?


He might have been a devil-worshiper which is a form of religion. Such a person is not necessarily an atheist. Or maybe he was kind and sending them to God sooner. You don't know what he was or what his motives were.

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14 Aug 2009, 10:36 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
When was the last time a group of Atheists shot up a school in Colorado, lined up students at gunpoint, asked each one "do you believe in God?" and executed those who answered "yes."?


And this is relevant how? You're implying that because there are murderers who are religious, anyone who is religious is a murderer? By that logic, I could also say that because some murderers are Aspies, all Aspies are murderers.

The issue here is tolerance for other people's beliefs. Insinuating that the billions of people on this planet who believe in God are stupid or deluded is the height of arrogance and bigotry. As Aspies, you would think we would know something about bigotry.

And to the person who implied that I had a "preference for one type of whining", the issue here is not theology ... mine or anyone else's. Whether there is a God or not wasn't the point raised by the original poster. The issue was having the unmitigated gall to consider those who don't share your beliefs to be stupid.