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Philosophy of Government of everyone concerned with Politics

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Master_Pedant
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17 Aug 2009, 4:40 pm

Government is the Problem, unless I’m (or we’re) in charge!

This is a great way to explain the ultimate hypocrisy consistent with anyone who’s every critiqued government or the very notion of government. They weren’t criticizing government as an abstract institution, they were criticizing the people in charge, who they presumed to be either less competent or less virtuous then themselves.



ruveyn
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17 Aug 2009, 5:06 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Government is the Problem, unless I’m (or we’re) in charge!

This is a great way to explain the ultimate hypocrisy consistent with anyone who’s every critiqued government or the very notion of government. They weren’t criticizing government as an abstract institution, they were criticizing the people in charge, who they presumed to be either less competent or less virtuous then themselves.


This is manifestly the case. Anyone virtuous enough or competent enough to be in charge would turn down the job. Anyone who would take the job is clearly unworthy.

ruveyn



Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2009, 5:44 pm

Is the idea you are getting at that power structures inherently exist, and all that can be done is that these power structures can be modified, thus meaning that everybody who criticizes the current power structure is just criticizing how power is shaped but they cannot really criticize the power itself as that power is necessary for their own utopia?

In any case, isn't your statement then an overstatement? After all, if one claimed that humanity itself is flawed, and thus criticized the government as itself being just a flawed outgrowth of humanity, one could thus criticize the government without saying that there is a vastly improved structure where everything is better. Or one could be a cynic interested in the workings of politics.

And yes, I did rephrase the issue so that way I can be charitable and claim that you are criticizing anarchists as well, as your own statement requires a universality which demands that anarchists be criticized.

EDIT: Yes, I did have to add and change things to make my post more consistent with precisely what you are saying and make the proper allowances. Hopefully I didn't miss anything.



ruveyn
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17 Aug 2009, 5:51 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Is the idea you are getting at that power structures inherently exist, and all that can be done is that these power structures can be modified, thus meaning that everybody who criticizes the current power structure is just criticizing how power is shaped but they cannot really criticize the power itself as that power is necessary for their own utopia?

In any case, isn't your statement then an overstatement? After all, if one claimed that humanity itself is flawed, and thus criticized the government as itself being just a flawed outgrowth of humanity, one could thus criticize the government without saying that there is a vastly improved structure where everything is better. Or one could be a cynic interested in the workings of politics.

And yes, I did rephrase the issue so that way I can be charitable and claim that you are criticizing anarchists as well, as your own statement requires a universality which demands that anarchists be criticized.

EDIT: Yes, I did have to add and change things to make my post more consistent with precisely what you are saying and make the proper allowances. Hopefully I didn't miss anything.


If humans were not flawed there would be no need for government. Government is the response to the Darkness Within.

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Ancalagon
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17 Aug 2009, 8:41 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Government is the Problem, unless I’m (or we’re) in charge!

This is a great way to explain the ultimate hypocrisy consistent with anyone who’s every critiqued government or the very notion of government. They weren’t criticizing government as an abstract institution, they were criticizing the people in charge, who they presumed to be either less competent or less virtuous then themselves.

"Easier said than done." A true statement. But that doesn't mean that what was said was false. Just that it was (comparatively) easy.


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Orwell
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17 Aug 2009, 8:48 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Government is the Problem, unless I’m (or we’re) in charge!

This is a great way to explain the ultimate hypocrisy consistent with anyone who’s every critiqued government or the very notion of government. They weren’t criticizing government as an abstract institution, they were criticizing the people in charge, who they presumed to be either less competent or less virtuous then themselves.

Nonsense. I've no interest in governing, and am quite certain that I'd be a piss-poor leader, yet I still criticize government.


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17 Aug 2009, 10:27 pm

The wryly amusing example is the recent Bush administration that decried any government as being totally flawed and went on to prove it by being monstrously incompetent.



Master_Pedant
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17 Aug 2009, 10:49 pm

Orwell wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Government is the Problem, unless I’m (or we’re) in charge!

This is a great way to explain the ultimate hypocrisy consistent with anyone who’s every critiqued government or the very notion of government. They weren’t criticizing government as an abstract institution, they were criticizing the people in charge, who they presumed to be either less competent or less virtuous then themselves.

Nonsense. I've no interest in governing, and am quite certain that I'd be a piss-poor leader, yet I still criticize government.


Yet, ultimately, I'm sure you think someone sharing similar values would make a good leader or ruling clique.



Master_Pedant
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17 Aug 2009, 10:51 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Is the idea you are getting at that power structures inherently exist, and all that can be done is that these power structures can be modified, thus meaning that everybody who criticizes the current power structure is just criticizing how power is shaped but they cannot really criticize the power itself as that power is necessary for their own utopia?

In any case, isn't your statement then an overstatement? After all, if one claimed that humanity itself is flawed, and thus criticized the government as itself being just a flawed outgrowth of humanity, one could thus criticize the government without saying that there is a vastly improved structure where everything is better. Or one could be a cynic interested in the workings of politics.

And yes, I did rephrase the issue so that way I can be charitable and claim that you are criticizing anarchists as well, as your own statement requires a universality which demands that anarchists be criticized.

EDIT: Yes, I did have to add and change things to make my post more consistent with precisely what you are saying and make the proper allowances. Hopefully I didn't miss anything.


My argument was ultimately aimed at "governs least" rhetorical conservatives. But, ultimate, I accept the fact that power structures always exist. Anarchists are ultimately concerned with restructuring those power structures.



Awesomelyglorious
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17 Aug 2009, 10:53 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Yet, ultimately, I'm sure you think someone sharing similar values would make a good leader or ruling clique.

I hate the idea of a leader or ruling clique. It gives me shivers. I am afraid of it. I am even afraid of my own political impulses because they could elevate my petty views to such a level, and silence the expression of the moral consciences of all of those around me. I am also critical of government, partially because it provides a leader and ruling clique.

What now? What now punk?! :twisted:



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17 Aug 2009, 10:56 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Yet, ultimately, I'm sure you think someone sharing similar values would make a good leader or ruling clique.

I hate the idea of a leader or ruling clique. It gives me shivers. I am afraid of it. I am even afraid of my own political impulses because they could elevate my petty views to such a level, and silence the expression of the moral consciences of all of those around me. I am also critical of government, partially because it provides a leader and ruling clique.

What now? What now punk?! :twisted:


Get close to affecting insitutional reform and such impulses will surely change.



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17 Aug 2009, 10:57 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
Get close to affecting insitutional reform and such impulses will surely change.

Why do you think so?


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17 Aug 2009, 10:58 pm

Master_Pedant wrote:
My argument was ultimately aimed at "governs least" rhetorical conservatives. But, ultimate, I accept the fact that power structures always exist. Anarchists are ultimately concerned with restructuring those power structures.

Well, the issue is that unless you accept the identification of government with power structures, then your argument doesn't get off the ground.

After all, "governs least" actually does avoid the idea literally put forward. After all, "Government is the Problem, unless I’m (or we’re) in charge!" is deadened by a thorough notion that government is the problem and thus must be taken away from all hands as much as logically possible, a notion that does exist in some libertarian circles. And you could be trying to psychoanalyze these people, but psychoanalyzing people is such BS that I wouldn't ascribe it to anyone.



Master_Pedant
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17 Aug 2009, 11:02 pm

Ancalagon wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
Get close to affecting insitutional reform and such impulses will surely change.

Why do you think so?


Becauses idealisitc reformers always seem to. Its possible the sun won't rise tommorrow and its possible that one person will remain consistent to anti-(intellectual) group egotism, but its not very likely.



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17 Aug 2009, 11:03 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
My argument was ultimately aimed at "governs least" rhetorical conservatives. But, ultimate, I accept the fact that power structures always exist. Anarchists are ultimately concerned with restructuring those power structures.

Well, the issue is that unless you accept the identification of government with power structures, then your argument doesn't get off the ground.

After all, "governs least" actually does avoid the idea literally put forward. After all, "Government is the Problem, unless I’m (or we’re) in charge!" is deadened by a thorough notion that government is the problem and thus must be taken away from all hands as much as logically possible, a notion that does exist in some libertarian circles. And you could be trying to psychoanalyze these people, but psychoanalyzing people is such BS that I wouldn't ascribe it to anyone.


There is no such thing as "no government". Two individuals interacting individually comprise a minimum government. Humans are social creatures and when they interact that is government and it can function well or badly depending on various conditions, traditions, and individuals.



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17 Aug 2009, 11:03 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
Master_Pedant wrote:
My argument was ultimately aimed at "governs least" rhetorical conservatives. But, ultimate, I accept the fact that power structures always exist. Anarchists are ultimately concerned with restructuring those power structures.

Well, the issue is that unless you accept the identification of government with power structures, then your argument doesn't get off the ground.

After all, "governs least" actually does avoid the idea literally put forward. After all, "Government is the Problem, unless I’m (or we’re) in charge!" is deadened by a thorough notion that government is the problem and thus must be taken away from all hands as much as logically possible, a notion that does exist in some libertarian circles. And you could be trying to psychoanalyze these people, but psychoanalyzing people is such BS that I wouldn't ascribe it to anyone.


Bob Barr certainly changed tones in and outside of government.