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techstepgenr8tion
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26 Aug 2009, 9:54 pm

I'll try not to preface this one with too much of a book, its a question I'm asking because - its important in its own respects.

Mainly this - while we laugh at most psychics and 'faith healers' as charlatans, yes most are, for some it gets a little too tricky to just blanket them all.

What I mean - there are enough psychics out there who've worked with local police, professional skeptics, and only got themselves in the good graces of law enforcement by giving suggestions where, even if they all could have been vague guesses, the consistency starts heading off to lottery-winning odds and then well past that.

You also have healers like Dr. Issam Nemeh who, whether its a newly discovered temporal process in the human nervous system or proof of deity - he has not only been able to work a great amount of healings but has even had NASA do quantitative analysis on what he does. The guy's not flashy, he's low key, if some might scream - "Aha! Sounds like Ignatius Loyola back in the flesh!" - again, after a while and after some very cut and dry health issues being resolved, it gets tougher and tougher to call it fake.

Now, Dr. Issam Nemeh in one of his interviews pointed out - a lot of people go to his healing sessions, see miracles, rejoice in it, and then when they leave they compartmentalize it like it its something wholly separate from their lives that they can't weave into their reality. For good reason too - looking around us at the world in general, at world history (particularly the worst human tragedies, some of which were 20th century and still fresh in our minds) - its pretty hard to digest anything that rolls that far to the opposite.

Me - I don't like letting that kind of cognitive dissonance just chill. Ie. - if it is in fact real, then its real; to need to call it something its not implies that we're too steeped in protective mechanisms. I could understand enough people saying that psychics just have a savantism of some type that goes beyond what we know as reality, not necessarily religious but with a scientific base. One might be able to argue that Dr. Nemeh's healings and what he describes himself seeing is full of imagry because perhaps the ability to do these things is in the temporal lobe and would cause hallucinations as a side effect? It seems like a little bit of a push but, again we don't know - just that if the anecdotal evidence builds and builds on someone's abilities its likely I think better to make one of those arguments than just refuse the existence of such phenomena.

Psychic ability - that can scare people a little, mainly that they'd be terrified of what a despot could do with that. Healing abilities though - could save billions of dollars a year though yes, might put an entire host of professions in a job search or at least heading toward geriatric health where physical decay is just inevitable.

I just wonder what you all think on this in terms of the research or lack thereof out there in terms of testing or quantifying these angles of the human being. I get the impression, or at least I partially do partially remain skeptic - that these things might be something similar to what Chinese pandas were before 1930; the broader community hasn't seen, hasn't photographed, or in the case of psychic phenomena or healing has had trouble testing. Strange things are coming up though, such as the random probability experiments run by supercomputers that will strangely enough seismograph large dips and thrusts in global consciousness - its fascinating in that, at the very least, it tells us that we have to be careful about how much we think we know about the full spectrum of forces undergirding our reality and even our own capabilities.



Sand
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26 Aug 2009, 10:04 pm

No rational person claims everything is known but there are standards for acceptance and since the overwhelming number of so-called psychic phenomena have been debunked it's wise to be very suspicious. There is clear evidence that there are multitudes of gullible people who swallow every sort of idiocy because that's what they want. It's a very profitable area and got us into a meaningless nasty war with Iraq.



Fuzzy
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26 Aug 2009, 10:08 pm

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Mouse-over text: "You can do a lot better than 1% if you start keeping track of the patterns in what numbers people pick."


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skafather84
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26 Aug 2009, 10:36 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
- "Aha! Sounds like Ignatius Loyola back in the flesh!" -



Nah, I'm more Ignatius Loyola....much to my own chagrin.


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ruveyn
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27 Aug 2009, 3:01 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
You also have healers like Dr. Issam Nemeh who, whether its a newly discovered temporal process in the human nervous system or proof of deity - he has not only been able to work a great amount of healings but has even had NASA do quantitative analysis on what he does. The guy's not flashy, he's low key, if some might scream - "Aha! Sounds like Ignatius Loyola back in the flesh!" - again, after a while and after some very cut and dry health issues being resolved, it gets tougher and tougher to call it fake.



James Randhi does this professionally basically to show that this is fraud and nonsens. First Uri Geller, now Issam Nemeh? When will people learn that there are only physical and chemical processes at work?

ruveyn



Sand
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27 Aug 2009, 5:12 am

ruveyn wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
You also have healers like Dr. Issam Nemeh who, whether its a newly discovered temporal process in the human nervous system or proof of deity - he has not only been able to work a great amount of healings but has even had NASA do quantitative analysis on what he does. The guy's not flashy, he's low key, if some might scream - "Aha! Sounds like Ignatius Loyola back in the flesh!" - again, after a while and after some very cut and dry health issues being resolved, it gets tougher and tougher to call it fake.



James Randhi does this professionally basically to show that this is fraud and nonsens. First Uri Geller, now Issam Nemeh? When will people learn that there are only physical and chemical processes at work?

ruveyn


Randi - Gandhi - I think there's some confusion here



ruveyn
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27 Aug 2009, 7:26 am

Sand wrote:

Randi - Gandhi - I think there's some confusion here


Pardon the spelling error. However Randi does reproduce the external appearances of what these frauds do and he makes it plain he is doing tricks. Now, I have a choice. I can believe mysterious woo woo has happened or I can believe a trick has been played. By Occam's razor, the rational thing is to believe a trick has been played.

ruveyn



Sand
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27 Aug 2009, 8:26 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

Randi - Gandhi - I think there's some confusion here


Pardon the spelling error. However Randi does reproduce the external appearances of what these frauds do and he makes it plain he is doing tricks. Now, I have a choice. I can believe mysterious woo woo has happened or I can believe a trick has been played. By Occam's razor, the rational thing is to believe a trick has been played.

ruveyn


I'm with you almost all the way, but each case must be considered individually, whatever the likelihood.



phil777
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27 Aug 2009, 10:13 am

Hrmph =.= About miracles?... Well i've had one happen to members of my extended family... (and they haven't given us any new information proving otherwise, so meh) Basically my little cousin once suddenly fell in a coma or something (i wasn't there mind you, this is all family talk) and was brought to a hospital, the doctors said that he had little chance to make it and on the off-chance that he did, he could wake up mentally ret*d =/ . As they were about to unplug him, the little guy woke and and called to his parents. Apparently he was ok <.< . So yeah, not claiming it's a miracle, but i'm still puzzled. -.-



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27 Aug 2009, 10:53 am

Here is a paper that offers suggestions on how it might work. There is still so much to be learned about the brain.

http://spiritualscientific.com/yahoo_si ... 210451.htm


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Sand
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27 Aug 2009, 11:00 am

phil777 wrote:
Hrmph =.= About miracles?... Well i've had one happen to members of my extended family... (and they haven't given us any new information proving otherwise, so meh) Basically my little cousin once suddenly fell in a coma or something (i wasn't there mind you, this is all family talk) and was brought to a hospital, the doctors said that he had little chance to make it and on the off-chance that he did, he could wake up mentally ret*d =/ . As they were about to unplug him, the little guy woke and and called to his parents. Apparently he was ok <.< . So yeah, not claiming it's a miracle, but i'm still puzzled. -.-


About 90,000 people die each year in the USA from medical errors. To call a medical error a miracle seems to me to be pushing things a bit.



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27 Aug 2009, 12:21 pm

I enjoy just sitting back and observing the mysterious. It's kind of like Santa Clause. As a child, there is a lot of joy in the wonderment, but as the child grows and learns the truth, they're kind of bummed. I still don't know how David Blaine levitates. I know it's a trick, but I like the possibility of what if. It's just a lot more interesting if we don't know. If it doesn't cause harm, then I think it can be fun. It's when people take this crap too seriously that we can get into trouble.



Sand
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27 Aug 2009, 12:27 pm

number5 wrote:
I enjoy just sitting back and observing the mysterious. It's kind of like Santa Clause. As a child, there is a lot of joy in the wonderment, but as the child grows and learns the truth, they're kind of bummed. I still don't know how David Blaine levitates. I know it's a trick, but I like the possibility of what if. It's just a lot more interesting if we don't know. If it doesn't cause harm, then I think it can be fun. It's when people take this crap too seriously that we can get into trouble.


When NASA begins to use David Blaine as a consultant its worth paying attention to.



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27 Aug 2009, 12:49 pm

Sand wrote:
number5 wrote:
I enjoy just sitting back and observing the mysterious. It's kind of like Santa Clause. As a child, there is a lot of joy in the wonderment, but as the child grows and learns the truth, they're kind of bummed. I still don't know how David Blaine levitates. I know it's a trick, but I like the possibility of what if. It's just a lot more interesting if we don't know. If it doesn't cause harm, then I think it can be fun. It's when people take this crap too seriously that we can get into trouble.


When NASA begins to use David Blaine as a consultant its worth paying attention to.


But not worth it to enter the astronaut program.


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Magnus
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27 Aug 2009, 2:35 pm

"One of the difficulties in accepting mind-body healing as
mainstream medical therapeutic modality is that there is no coherent theory of
how it might work. If we accept that there is a non-local reality as evidenced
by the Aspect experiments, Rupert Sheldrake's morphic forms would seemingly
exist within that non-local reality. "

-Michael Morse


Did anyone even click on that link I put up?

Quote:
This theory results in potential scientific studies that can advance our
understanding of human consciousness and paranormal talents. I predict that even
if my hypothesis is proven wrong, advances in understanding mind-body healing
will occur in the process of investigating it.


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Sand
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27 Aug 2009, 6:00 pm

Magnus wrote:
"One of the difficulties in accepting mind-body healing as
mainstream medical therapeutic modality is that there is no coherent theory of
how it might work. If we accept that there is a non-local reality as evidenced
by the Aspect experiments, Rupert Sheldrake's morphic forms would seemingly
exist within that non-local reality. "

-Michael Morse


Did anyone even click on that link I put up?

Quote:
This theory results in potential scientific studies that can advance our
understanding of human consciousness and paranormal talents. I predict that even
if my hypothesis is proven wrong, advances in understanding mind-body healing
will occur in the process of investigating it.


The concept of the brain-mind existing somehow independent of the body is probably an outgrowth of the idiotic religious idea of a soul. The brain-mind is as firmly a part of the body as the liver or the kidneys.