My Brother is calling me a racist for being Anti Zionist

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In April 1948, the same month as the infamous massacre at Deir Yassin and the mortar attack on Palestinian civilians in Haifa’s market square, Plan Dalet was put into operation. This authorised the destruction of Palestinian villages and the expulsion of the indigenous population outside the borders of the state.

In July 1948, 70,000 Palestinians were driven from their homes in Lydda and Ramleh in the heat of the summer with no food or water. Hundreds died. It was known as the Death March.

In all, 750,000 Palestinians became refugees. Some 400 villages were wiped off the map. That did not end the ethnic cleansing. Thousands of Palestinians (Israeli citizens) were expelled from Galilee in 1956. Many thousands more when Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza. Under international law and sanctioned by UN resolution 194, refugees from war have a right to return or compensation. Israel has never accepted that right.

A lot of people in the West are utterly incapable of sympathy or solidarity with the Palestinians, because they are Muslim, because they are not white, because they look like the enemy in their own “War on Terror”. The cheerleading for Israel, no matter what they do, and the callous dismissal of Palestinian suffering with “they had it coming” is absolutely sickening. It is spurious to compare Israeli actions with the Holocaust, or to equate IDF troops with Nazi Stormtroopers, there is no similarity in intention, or in scale, but like an abused child, the state of Israel reacts in an abusive way itself, born in violence it knows no other way to behave.

Insulated from the true disastrous impact of their actions by an impenetrable belief in their own victimhood, they refuse to acknowledge their responsibility, as the regional superpower, to exercise some moral leadership. Until Israel grows up and stops being led by the nose by Hamas though cycle after cycle of violence and oppression, they will never be able to guarantee their citizens safety, and the Palestinians won’t be able to hope for any future at all.

In essence, you, AspE, good sir, are an advocate for continuous conflict and pain for millions of people for even more decades to come because of a 'moral obligation' based on historical victimhood. You frankly, in my eyes do not deserve to breathe.

You bring up 1948..and yes Deir Yassin was a massacre, no doubt...but you conveninatly ignore the fact that it was the Palestinians along with Egypt, Transjordan, and Syria declared WAR on Israel, and that the Palestinian forces committed massacres as well...i.e Etzion Bloc....and you fail to bring up the relocation of 500,000 Mizrahi Jews from North Africa and Iran to Israel, who today make up a significant amount of the Jewish population of Israel. The concept of Transfers of populations is not an Israeli devised concept...the same happened in 1821 during the Greek war of Independence against Turkey and the subsequent relocations of Greeks/Turks to opposite sides of the borders...the same happened in 1949 when India declared independence resulting in the transfers of millions of hindus/muslims across both borders creating much worse atrocities than those committed between Israel and the wider arab world...the Only difference is that the Arab govts have used the Palestinian refugees as a political tool against Israel rather than resettling them within their own borders...as for Zionism equated with Racism as some like to say...this is complete BS...Zionism is simply as esposed by Theodore Herzl as the Belief in a Jewish homeland..as to those who have posted here saying it was a religious dimension are not being historically accurate as those who settled the land from the 1880s-1940s were fervent Bundists/Socialists who believed in the works of A.D Gordon...the concept of the Community and Labor Socialism were at the pinpoint of redeeming the Jewish people from the Pale of settlement in Czarist Russia, and the Shtels/Ghettos of Eastern European Ashkenazi life.....Just so those who want to question my facts, well you can..but i will say i have a MA in Middle eastern studies, BA in European History and I have studied in Israel, volunteered on IDF bases and have also studied in the ARAB world, including Morocco and Jordan.

Just a quick question:


Does anyone really think you could take a large patch of land, make it a new country for people of a religion different from the popular religion in the general area, import a large number of people from somewhere else and have NO war break out?


I'd love to see what would happen if we annexed off a large chunk of Idaho and Wyoming, gave it to the Muslims, and gave them autonomy.

I wonder how many White Christians would have a problem with that?

Well first off, the creation of Israel and its development were corollary to events going on in Europe...Jews had been making what is called ' Aliyah" to Israel since the 1880s...by the 1930s, about 550,000 Jews lived within the Galilee, the Sharon Plain ( where Tel Aviv is located) and along the road to Jerusalem....of course the Arab world was not going to recognize Israel, but Israel defended itself through its effective use of Haganah tactics they had learned through training with British WW II units and against Arab fedayeen attacks that went unchecked by the British Mandate authorities ( who ran the land until its transfer to the UN)...when the UN voted on partition for two seperate Jewish and Arab states, it angered the Arabs because they didnt want Jews or anyone else there. The British actually prevented many ships escaping from the Holocaust to land in whats called the Yishuv ( settlement) because they feared the Arab reaction and they wanted to restrict Jewish growth there...to those who think that the British helped establish Israel, run contrary to the words of their own leaders....the creation of Israel wasn't assisted Militarily by the US either..as Truman and Eisenhower put up arms embargoes against Israel...Israel had to buy its weapons through third party sources in Czechslovakia...so the idea that they were defenseless jews who were somehow transplanted to Israel for ulterior purposes is just not accurate....for the most part you had jews who had been living there since the early part of the 20th century, jews who fled Arab countries and Jews who escaped persecution in Europe ( where jews who went back were also murdered)....their is more to say on this..if you want a complete accurate history of Israel, if i were you i'd read " History of Israel from Zionism to our times"...its very lengthy about 1200 pages or so, but its worth it if you want to know the complexities of the situation and how outside world events shaped Israel.

Where did you study at? I want my PhD right away.

I honestly don't know where you 'earned' your apparent MA and BA from when you seem incapable of knowing what paragraphs are, and probably completely forgotten what punctuation is. Were your professors blind?

You have no credibility.

So instead of having a discussion on what you posted, you revert to Ad Hominem attacks on myself to make your case that I somehow don't have " Credibility" because my punctuation in a message board forumn is not up to task? Ohh well..I am not here to prove myself to you or anyone else, just to say I do know what I am talking about on this subject.....Than again I never attacked your credibility on this subject, but you somehow seem offended by what I posted to think you should attack mine...and as for where I studied, I got my BA from Montclair University, my MA from Rutgers University..I studied for a year in Tel Aviv University as well.

I should make a point to avoid those colleges in the future. For despite your supposed BA and MA education, you forget, for a fact that you failed to fully answer skafather84's question on the a priori condition of having had a settlement of half a million people at first, and then have partake in what you sterilize as "Oh, other people did that before." Instead, you decide to make excuses about how because other people did that before, Israel somehow wasn't wrong in doing that. Why?

Certainly, you've acknowledged that Deir Yassin was an utter massacre but didn't think that it was wrong.

So it doesn't disprove my earlier point that your intense sense of historical victimhood has blinded you from the utter evil that allowed the modern state of Israel to form. You haven't been as much different from the Schutzstaffel of old who are able to justify ethnic cleansing with a smile and citing how educated and cultured you are. "World events" isn't a valid excuse for massacres. "World events" also motivated Germany to do what it did and led on to 1948. Neither did Israel have to right to claim that same excuse, except that it managed to get away with it because of the en-masse delusion of Christians.

Click those heels together, soldier!

I didn't morally justify it...by Saying it was a massacre its implied its wrong..for rational human beings that is...but to say the " other side" didn't commit any or was blameless is an act of historical revisionism...And saying it was a common practice to " exchange" populations such as Jews for Arabs, Hindus/Muslims, Greeks/Turks and so on in the Post World War I Wilsonian concept of Self Determination of nations, you seem to want to put Israel on some pedestal that all the other nations don't have to account for. As for Israel being formed by " utter evil"...well Israel would have had half its land it had after the 1948 war if the Arabs had accepted the Partition Plan...if they hadn't decided on war, they wouldn't have been defeated in war...I guess living in the United States we should hand back the southeast united states to their respective Native American nations, as we did some pretty brutal things to the Cherokee, Seminoles, and other groups. Are you willing to live by your moral sense of judgement and get up and leave? As for ethnic cleansing...sure...thats why 20 percent of the present Israeli population is Arab, right? I wonder what you have to say about what goes on with ethnic minorities within Jordan or Syria...you would be shocked at the massacres that have taken place there...


I guess my Historical " victimhood" that I somehow feel makes me blind to injustice....sure.....you seem to know so much about my mindset, don't you? Also, equating Israel with Nazi Germany is enough for me to know where you stand on the political spectrum and what your idealogy consists of....

Which was exactly the attitude of Palestinians towards Jews at the time.

I said, "Zionism is based on ending the persecution of Jews that has occurred throughout history as a result of religious bigotry. That is a moral justification for unifying Jews under one nation."

The question was, "Is there moral justification for Zionism", not, "Was Independence achieved in a perfectly moral fashion?". There were certainly aspects of the actual civil war that were arguably not morally justifiable, but that does not mean Zionism wasn't morally justifiable.

There were sound strategic reasons for expelling all those Arabs, many of whom were simply following the instructions of their own leaders. If it hasn't been done, Israel would be still fighting insurgents within the country.

With that " You don't deserve to breathe" comment it confirms what i suspected all along...a traditional neo-nazi masking his intentions behind intellectual sounding prose to try to make his point seem scholarly and acceptable...its really disgusting what these goons will do for attention.

I realize the movement started before the creation thereof. It's the only way it could have happened...you need to establish the settlements first.

It's all a big colonialist movement. The last, it seems.

The problem you have with the term " Colonalism" when refering to it is that the British never intended for it to be a Jewish state or an Arab state when they took it over in 1919, after the Sykes-Picot agreement of 1918 set up the division of the Middle East between French/British imperial designs. Jews moved into the area, they had to buy the land legally from the Arab tenant farmer families such as the Nashisibis and the Husseinis through the land purchase corporation called the Jewish National Fund, set up in Jaffe by Dr. Ruppin. This is still the means of buying land. Colonalism is the use of the land for the parent country...the british mandate was a colonial ruled govt...but the subsequent govt that took its place in 1948, the State of Israel is not a colony since its not ruled by a parent country. Colonalism implies that the British transplanted entire sections of British underclasses to Palestine to turn it into a little Britain, like the United States was prior to the Revolutionary War. The Brits wanted the land because they needed it to protect the Suez Canal lifeline which directed their world trade between India and the UK. Every part of British defense strategy rested on how well to protect the trade routes between Britain and India...unfortunatly they had control over it at the same time as the disintergration of the Ottoman Empire in the wake of WW1..." The Sick Man of Europe"...Pan-Arab nationalism was taking a hold with newly formed Arab states and also Zionism as a political movement was taking shape in the Eastern European Shtetls/Ghettos/Pale of Settlement where Antisemitism was a fact of life and the only hope for survival was either to the U.S or to the shores of Palestine...

What a tremendously interesting accusation!

For the sake of establishing who and what I am, I'm an Asian dude. I just finished two years of wasting my life in the Singapore Armed Forces (which was set up in the 60s with the help of the IDF because the US of A didn't feel like it), and I could probably ratify my so-called 'counterterrorism credentials' by saying that I had to stomp through the bloody jungles of this island in search of Southeast Asia's version of bin Laden, Mas Selamat Kastari because he had the guile to escape from our detention facilities.

I am a Libertarian who has slightly left leanings, and just to pander to the gun-loving right-wingers, I had two consecutive Company Best Shot awards with my SAR-21 for the annual marksmanship tests. I love guns, despite living in a country that bans ownership of firearms. I'm always first to go to grab for my rifle, or whatever weapons the army throws my way when I go back for reservist training.

Happy now?

Just because someone doesn't agree with your religious-sponsored and -endorsed rape of sovereignty of nations (which I'm partial to refer to as the nations' virginities), and utter oppression of the original residents thereafter, doesn't mean that he's a closet neo-Nazi. In attempting to cop out by labelling me a neo-Nazi, you're again, invoking your sense of historical victimhood and point at your amuptee father and pleading, "Help me, please. Give me a handout. Let me keep nuclear weapons without signing the NPT. My father has no limbs and can't work, and neither can I work even though I have a perfectly healthy body and mind. I want to invade Lebanon whenever I can and not face any consequences, just like good ol' Rudy Guliani utters, 'Nine-Eleven' whenever his credibility is under attack."

As a Chinese guy, if I wanted to continue invoking my historical victimhood of "Boo hoo, you evil Brits raped my motherland with opium and foreigners colonised everything and dispersed the population. Boo hoo. The British colonised my country of birth and made everyone a 2nd class citizen then surrendered when they didn't feel like fighting the Japs. Boo hoo coward British.", I wouldn't have bothered to even talk to anyone outside my country.

Get over it. I already have, and am flourishing. I don't need to boost my street cred with bogus BA's and MA's and "Oh look lol I volunteered at IDF bases. I AM BADASS!"

Its true its stupid to call you racist because I dont hate Israel but they pulling some real major BS and the US needs to step back I understand wanting a jewish homeland after the atroscities commited by the european christians so they wanted to get has far from that has they could.But they should have found a way to live in harmony with the palestinians.

Irridentist, not colonialist.

ruveyn

The connotation of anti-zionist involves meaning which is 90% synonymous with antisemitic.

Yes it's convinient to say otherwise but you can't just make new terms thinking you avoid the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.

And yes jews acn be anti semtic just as women can by misogynistic welcome to this universe , aren't you posting on autism related forums?
There should be at least some criticism of language missing what it's meant to describe floating around here.


that being said I would respect your opinion to supporting nationalist agendas based de jure and de facto on making me country-less since I don't want to confront all the typical repetitive appeal to emotion arguments thrown at me from all directions by a majority crowd and waste time.

tl;dr anti-zionism overlaps by way more than 90% with antisemitism , It's your right to express the latter so much as I am concerned
as a source to my claims look at the achmadenijad saga culminating in the recent UN speeches, this guy built his international image on this fallacy.


edit - ran this thread and was shocked , your arguments are the same in form as thoose used by hardcore racists, who would have thought?
regarding the palestinian issue judging by the fact no such country existed in history and had no definite borders or nationales it was a problem of european colonialists (yes those fancy guys talking about human rights away from their home build from "black" imports from that era) and the arab world , I don't see why only israel has to dedicate it's land for the Palestinians if a lot of it's neighbors house a large population of them , refuge and not so I would really like to see them ask them for land and recognition. hmm wonder how that's going to happen.
so yeah it pretty much is that useful conflict worth mentioning. In reality it is a major pillar on which all dictatorships in the middle east stand (among others like oil and religion)

edit - I am kind of pissed off about this , I was running around youtube and other sites and I kow this community is predominantly left wing american/european but this has convinced me to shift my opinion from center to right wing and vote accordingly. I never belied this stuff was circulating outside radical groups.