The truth about 9/11

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I know this is probably going to be pretty disturbing to anyone who hasn't heard about this yet (and my apologies if this is old news to anyone) but I think it's imperative that we find the truth about 9/11, and the government and media are, for the most part, not telling us. Ok, I know I'm gonna sound like a big conspiracy theorist here, but before you dismiss all this, I must point out that this is something that's been under research for the past four years and the evidence I'm drawing from comes from physicists, political scientists, and accounts from police officers and fire fighters who were at ground zero, among others-there is significant reliable evidence out there supporting what I'm going to be saying, and I'll link to it when I can. I'm not an extremist, and I try not to adhere to any particular way of thinking-I'm not a liberal, or a conservative, nor do I prescribe to any "isms" (I know I've said so in the past, I was being impulsive ); I just try to seek the truth, and what makes sense. And I love my country, and feel that this is my duty. Ok, on to the important part of this post.

I should begin with this quote from an article written by a political scientist concerning the validity of evidence for the theory I will be discussing that is on the internet:

I've tried to find and quote from reliable sources. Some, if not many of you already suspect that the government knew about 9/11 beforehand, so nothing new there. But there is significant evidence that the towers fell not because of the impact from the planes, but from explosions, thought to have been set off from underneath the building-it was a demoliton-like collapse, and fire has never caused steel-framed buildings to collapse; one proponent of this theory is a physicist from Brigham Young University Steven Jones. Here is an article about it: http://www.911truth.org/article.php?sto ... 1074847512
And a link to his paper about it: www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.htm.
Accounts of rescue workers at ground zero have also supported the explostion theory. At least 100 websites have been found with different pieces of evidence that seriously put into question the original explanation of 9/11: http://www.cosmicpenguin.com/911/#LINK
Not only is there evidence concerning explosions, but there are a number of inconsistencies, impossibilties, and suspicious circumstances in the original explanation. For instance, at least four of the named hijackers were not in the U.S at the time of the attack. The WTC towers collapsed without adequate heat stress. Most of the alleged hijackers were incompetent to poor pilots. Black boxes were missing from all but one flight. Cellphone calls alleged to have been made on the hijacked flights were essentially impossible. http://www.physics911.net/pearl.htm In addition, NORAD surveillance systems are usually highly efficient; it is improbable that the four flights would have disappeared from the radar screen http://www.911truth.org/article.php?sto ... 7155212120 Also, it is believed to have been impossible for the Pentagon to have been hit by a plane for, among other reasons, the wing that was hit would have been the one lease visible to the hijackers. There is no video footage of such an attack, coincidentally. Plausible alternate speculations as to what really happened have been offered that are more consistent with the evidence; here is one: http://www.physics911.net/pearl.htm

Here are some additional suspicious circumstances surrounding 9/11. Six of the alleged hijackers have been credibly reported to still be alive http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php? ... icleId=907 President Bush's brother and cousin were both principles in a company in charge of security at WTC (same link). A man named Larry Silverstein leased the twin towers of the WTC six weeks before the event and set himself up for a large reimbursement by insurance companies http://www.911truth.org/article.php?sto ... 7155212120. There is other evidence as well pointing to insider knowledge prior to the attacks. Also, General Mahoud Ahmad, the head of Pakistan's intelligence agency, was in Washington a week prior to 9/11 meeting with George Tenet and other officials; there is evidence that Ahmad ordered $100,000 to be sent to Mohamed Atta prior to 9/11; after the evidence surfaced he was pressured by the Bush administration to step down (same link). In July 2001, US representatives said that because the Taliban refused to agree to a US proposal that would allow the Unocal pipeline project to go forward, war against them would begin by October-one of many pieces of evidence pointing to a motive for allowing and even taking part in the 9/11 attacks. (It's important to note that the current president of Aghanistan was once involved in Unocal). In addition, the U.S has been involved in covert operations to secure control over the Persian Gulf region and open up Central Asia for oil exploration for decades; they have used and sponsored, among others, members of Al-Qaeda to achieve their goals-the U.S has provided a significant amount of indirect assistance to them for decades. The government, of course, has denied doing so. At one point, Al-Qaeda foot soldiers were even allowed into the U.S for a special program and given special visas. One was even on the U.S military payroll http://ist-socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdsco ... ground.htm. Also, at least six of the hijackers did not live a lifestyle of radical, fundamentalist Islam; Atta and a number of others visited Las Vegas, drank alcohol, and did a number of other things not in accordance with radical Islam http://www.nowpublic.com/node/25032 Oh yes, and I should point out that Osama Bin Laden, even as he topped the FBI's most wanted list, was treated by an American medical doctor in Dubai, and it is believed that he was allowed to escape at the start of the war in Afghanistan. After 9/11, the FBI invoked privacy right protections on his behalf http://www.911truth.org/index.php?page=8 (I wish that were a joke, but it's not). This is a bit off topic, but, prior to the anthrax attacks, White House officials were taking anti-anthrax pills. The letters were addressed to Democrats, not long before the Patriot Act went up to vote.

In addition to all the evidence refuting the original explanations and suspicious circumstances, the Bush administration has gone to an awful lot of trouble to cover the whole thing up. The documents linking Atta to Ahmad of the ISI and the ISI to the U.S have been destroyed, there were many omissions and errors in the 9/11 Commission report, including omissions of testimonies http://911readingroom.org/bib/whole_doc ... cle_id=422 In addition, no independent investigation into 9/11 has ever been commissioned by the White House, just a bipartisan congressional investigation whose report, as stated above, has many omissions and errors. The commission was allowed only limited access to documents surrounding the 9/11 attacks. Also, the man appointed as Executive Director of the commission, Dr. Philip Zelikow, worked for and with members of the administration, including Condoleeza Rice, Dick Cheney, and Paul Wolfowitz, for 15 years http://www.911truth.org/article.php?sto ... 1092627689. The Bush administration also delayed the release of some of the findings of the Commission until Condoleeza Rice had been sworn in as Secretary of State, to the objection of the Commission http://www.911truth.org/article.php?sto ... 9094920911 Steel from the WTC remains were carted off before they could be analyzed.

And of course there is the issue of motives. Even without evidence, the motives for the government to allow or even plan the attacks are easy to surmise, as it is pretty obvious that they have benefited in some ways from them. As I stated above, top officials were wanting to invade Afghanistan before the attacks even took place-they did, and, coincidentally, a new president was elected (with help from the U.S, most likely) who had once had a position in Unocal and would be friendly to the plans of an oil pipeline there, which the Taliban had not. In addition, it gave them a "justification" for the invasion of Iraq (to the great benefit of Halliburton, among others), which some officials, including Bush, had wanted long before 9/11. Also, as stated above, the U.S has been involved in operations aimed at controlling the middle east for decades; this has furthered their goal. Also, here at home, it instilled people with a sense of fear that could be manipulated to achieve their political ends, such as the passing of the Patriot Act which restricted privacy and increased government powers, the war in Iraq, which is also a domestic issue, increased funding for defense (some of which is used for the research and implemenation of space weapons that would give the U.S military dominance in air, land, sea and space), and easy ways to refute those who seek the truth-that they're unpatriotic, aiding the enemy, hurting our soldiers, etc. (it is interesting to note that a number of the ends achieved fit in with the fourteen points of fascism which you can find here: www.oldamericancentury.org/14pts.htm ) For an in-depth look into the motives involved, see this article: http://www.911truth.org/article.php?sto ... 2152750305

I'm not trying to make any solid conclusions; we still don't know what happened. But I invite you all to take a good look at the evidence, and connect the dots.

Indeed.

Midge, the conspiracy theories regarding 9/11 have been thoroughly debunked for years. The links you're reading and forwarding are a bunch of crazies (both literal and figurative) desperate to use the tragedy to advance their crackpot theories about the evils of the U.S. government.

While you could argue that America's irresponsible foreign policy was partly responsible in inviting an attack of that magnitude, accusing them of colluding with the terrorists makes about as much sense as saying that they staged Pearl Harbor.

Jeremy

How ashamed am I of my impulsiveness! I became so alarmed while reading an article regarding all these things, that I immediately felt the need to write the above post. I did do it with good intentions-I've always been committed to finding the truth and informing people and that type of thing, and I do try to be rational about it and find good sources (I swear!), but I should have done more research obviously....that's not to say that the above theories do not contain actualities and truths, but separating myth and poorly contructed agruments from fact can be a long, arduous process in some cases...I've been doing research for two hours and I still find myself quite uncertain and confused. The amount of material regarding the topic is simply enormous. There are still things we don't know of course, and I certainly believe there is more to the story that meets the eye, that it should be investigated further, and that the current administration exploited the tragedy...but I guess that's not the purpose of this post. I meant to say that I don't expect anyone to take anything I say regarding subjects in this forum as well as the news and current events forum and any other thread concerning politics, philosophy, current events, and related issues seriously, since you all probably think I'm an extremist or easily duped (and I really try not to be, that's why I don't stick to any "isms"-I feel it would cause me to develop my stance on an issue too quickly when I like to carefully think it through first, and let it adapt and change) so I'm going to try not to make any posts in them anymore, and probably not too many on the rest of the site either. While I have a passion for debate, posting here just leaves me feeling frustrated, humiliated (as in this case) and like a pompous a**hole for thinking anyone gives a sh*t about what I have to say (I feel like a pompous a**hole for writing this, since it's not like it really matters or anything). I'm not blaming anyone but myself here. The picture that was posted here did kind of hurt my feelings, but a person as sensitive as I am shouldn't get involved in discussions of any highly controversial subject to begin with. I could always sharpen my skills and do lots of research and such, but I don't really have time for that, and I guess I kind of already do use lots of research from reading a lot, but I like so many subjects I've never gained extensive knowledge in any but a few. But now I'm just jabbering on like, well, a pompous a**hole. Seriously, I don't expect anyone to give a sh*t or read this or anything. I'm just venting and probably trying to save my sorry face too. Thanks a lot for listening to anyone who did.

Midge, don't listen to either one of them.

I would recommend not bothering with it because they won. Bush and Cheney and the Israelis got away with the crime of the century. They set up 9/11, then used it as an excuse to destroy one of Israel's enemies, Iraq, and to gain control of the major world producer of Heroin, Afghanistan.

The list of their crimes is so long that it would take a book to list them all. And they will get away with everyone of them. The Israelis control the USA congress, the control George Bush, they control the USA media, they control USA commerce and finance, they control the judicial system.

No one will ever be charged, even though the evidence is as obvious as the sky is blue. 9/11 will be this generations Kennedy. Everyone knows Kennedy was assasinated with the assistance of the USA government. People talked about it since 1960. No one was ever charged because people complicit in the plot were put in charge of the "investigations, better known as "whitewash".

People will laugh at you and point at you and do cutesy little things like post pictures of cows dumping in toilets to describe your post. For some of them it is their job to do this. To go to forums around the internet, and to stop speech like yours, or to ridicule you so that no one listens to you.

I should warn you that if you seriously believe in this and press it, people like Sean will come out of the woodwork to be mean to you, to ridicule you, to harass you, to ruin your work with gobbledygook. They are not good people. No action is beneath them. They would look you right in the eyes and lie to your face.

You need to be prepared for that kind of treachery if you choose to become involved in these kinds of discussions. You need to be aware of how they operate.

See what I mean? Sean and this other guy say two contradictory things too you, and you are apologizing and running away.

Sean is biased against this issue. He will always say what he does even if you had sworn affidavits from the people who blew up the WTC. That is what he does. Jeremy I have not come across to determine his motivations. His post is exactly what the republican or neo cons say. He is repeating propaganda meant to do to people what it did to you.

Make them apologize for causing consternation, and run away.

I am struck by the irony of your reply to Midge above, and your sig.

"Don't worry about what other people think. They usually don't."

That exactly describes your replying with a cartoon instead of a statement of your postion.

I have noticed that your approach to people is to "throw rocks". You say you disagree with them, but you never explain why. You "throw the rock" of that cartoon, implying Midge's post is fecal matter, but you don't explain why.

Sort of like telling me I need a psychologist, but never explaining why.

Why do you throw rocks at people and run away? Are you young? You think it is funny to do that? Or it gives you a feeling of power to throw rocks at people and run away?

One day you will grow up. Then you will learn that true power comes from standing up for your position and defending it. Not posting sarcastic cartoons and running away before you are caught.

I stand by Happeh here!! !

This is an excellent alternative theory, Midge. Don't be scared of Sean's bully-boy tactics - he would sooner sell his soul for the Bush regime (he might have already).

I strongly suspect that 9/11 was an inside job or at the very least a joint operation between the extremists and the Bush government. Keep posting new ideas. We must get to the root of the matter.

I don't mean to bring this thread off on a tangent, but it would be really nice if we could stay away from personal attacks or insulting other people. Thanks.

I am not a Republican. I'm a social liberal/fiscal conservative. I'd call myself a libertarian, but those people are crazy. I typically vote Democrat because I consider social freedom to be paramount. Also, insanely, they are more fiscally responsible. I could maybe get on board with old school Republicanism (small government, low taxes, states' right), but that breed is dead.

I'm not repeating any propaganda. I didn't justify my comments because I believe they should be self-evident to any reasonable person. But, since you take issue with that, I'll clarify them here.

1. First, if the U.S. government was complicit in the 9/11 attacks, there must've been a lot of people involved. People always talk about these conspiracies as if there were only a handful of people in a smoky backroom working things out, but my concern would be the little people. There must've been pilots who flew officials to meet with the terrorists in Afghanistan, or vice versa. Translators who helped communicate with them. Secretaries who fudged Bush's (or whoever's) schedules to cover it up.

If you believe the tower collapse was an inside job, then you're also talking about engineers and demolitions experts to plan how to bring the towers down (not a trivial undertaking), and manual labor to cart the explosives up to the right place and set them up. Why didn't anybody working in the building notice this? Building security (who don't work for the government)? The janitor?

The point I'm trying to make, of course, is that it's not possible for a conspiracy of this magnitude to stay secret. You're probably talking hundreds of people, all complicit in the biggest single terrorist attack in history. Someone would crack and come forward. If there were a conspiracy, most likely not everybody involved would what was going on in advance; Bush and a few top officials might be sociopaths, but there simply aren't that many people willing to casually plan thousands of murders. Those other people would put the pieces together after the fact and blow the whistle.

Think about it: they couldn't even keep freakin' Watergate a secret, and that was peanuts compared to 9/11.

2. Second, why would the terrorists conspire with the U.S. government? Their goals are completely at odds! How could the same action benefit both of them? There are severe problems with the question of motive, too.

And, come to think of it, why wouldn't the terrorists come forward about this conspiracy? After all, things obviously didn't go their way: Afghanistan was invaded, Iraq was invaded, their organization was splintered. al Qaeda's biggest beef was the presence of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia, and now look at all the troops we have in the region. If you really think the terrorists were collaborating with the U.S., then they must've been pretty upset about being betrayed like that. And they would've had details about who they met with, and when, and how they planned the attack. Think about the political and economic damage they could do to the U.S. by releasing that information! It would be disastrous. But no, they took responsibility for the attacks all by themselves.

3. Why would the U.S. government include the Pentagon and the White House (where flight 93 was headed) as targets? That would've been a completely unnecessary and counterproductive course of action. If the goal was to grab power for themselves, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to shoot themselves in the foot. The WTC would've been more than sufficient.


In short, the notion of a conspiracy is absurd. There are profound problems with both the theoretical and practical aspects of such a venture. The only reasonable explanation is that the terrorists were responsible for the attacks, and that they acted alone.

Jeremy

But they could keep track II of the Chille coup planning a secret (even from the embassador of Chille.)

I agree. There's no reason that we can't have a discussion about this without everyone attacking each other. I personally think that Sean's post was extremely rude. If you disagree, why not come up with something as well written and thought out as Midge's posts instead of just posting some dumb picture?

I'm Canadian, so I'm on the outside looking in, and I know that not everything on the internet can be taken at face value. Having said that, we obviously can't take everything in the media at face value either. Before ever reading any of this stuff, I've always believed that there is a lot more to 9/11 than what those who should be telling us the truth have been telling us. Even if the Bush administration wasn't complicit in 9/11 (which I believe is most certainly possible), it got them what they wanted. And that's sad.

I thought the picture was funny.

It's usually pretty pointless arguing with conspiracy theorists, because they just use any facts you present to them as evidence for the complexity of the conspiracy.

Any major incident is going to have it's share of conspiracy theroys.

If things are not as they seem, then only people who know the real truth about 9/11 are those who are dead or are never going to talk.

Midge - If you like a good conspiracy theory, read up on some of the conspiracy theroys surrounding the space shuttle, specificly the columbia accident.

Oh yes, around 5,000,000 American Jews control 270,000,0000 Americans! Or is it that the around 12,000,000 Jews of the world control about 7,000,000,000 people on the planet?

As for the WTC: Fire can (and has) taken out steel-framed structures, those that say otherwise are either ignorant or depending on you to be. In addition, the WTC towers were not steel framed as these fools oftentimes say, they were steel-reinforced with concrete as a structural member. Concrete fails starting around 300 F due to entrapped water and air pockets expanding, structural steel fails starting at about 600F when the temper is killed due to the heat. By contrast, the jet fuel burned at well over 1,000 F. Ever see a burned up car that has structurally failed from the heat? Gasoline burns cooler than fuel oil (jet fuel) yet it isn't uncommon to see cars with collapsed roofs, suspension components, frames, etc. after they burn.
The implosion effect of the towers was due to the unique structural design of the towers, I'm sure you can find it online if you sort through the garbage. The structure was basicly upright columns of concrete and steel tied together with lighter steel trusses that supported the floors. There was an outer perimeter of columns and a center square of columns around the stairs, elevators, conduit, etc. The floor support trusses were between the center and outer columns. When the center support columns failed on the impact floors due to structural damage of the impact combined with the heat of the jet fuel burning, the sections of the columns over the impact floors started a center-of-building implosion. These upper sections of the center columns telescoped down around the lower sections, while the floor trusses between the upper section of inner columns and the outer perimeter columns pulled the outer columns down. Basically, the center section failed and took down the outer wall with it.

As for you Happeh, you scream how people are unhealthy yet you are obviously mentally unbalanced and unhealthy to everybody that reads your posts here or elsewhere. PLEASE seek profesional help!

Machloket

They are not crazy.



I feel that way about what I say. People line up to call me insane. All I did to you was say you were repeating propaganda.



Why. People do what they are ordered to. Cheney gives orders, everyone else follows them.



Do you ask strangers in a high rise what they are doing and if they have authorization for what they are doing?



It is not a secret. You and I are talking about it right now. Why hundreds of people? It would take 4 or 5 people to walk around the WTC planting explosives. What is the big deal?



Watergate was not hidden and discovered. Watergate was an Israeli conspiracy to get rid of Nixon. Go listen to Nixon's recordings. It is a well known fact that Nixon said "The jews are out to get me".

The jews got him.



What terrorists? The Israelis were behind it. The Israelis control the USA government. Of course they both have the same goals.



In short, the belief that a high rise would fall straight down is absurd. The only reasonable explanation is that it was a controlled demolition. It was not terrorists who were responsible, it was the Israelis and their American agents, the Neo Cons.