Page 1 of 3 [ 37 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

DrFremdliebe
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 13 Oct 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 15

15 Oct 2009, 10:30 am

Capitalism, marxism, fascism have failed. It seems to me there is only one way out: authoritarian socialism. Venezuela, Chavez! Free healthcare, education and retirement for all.

Viva Chavez!


_________________
La loi, c'est moi


racooneyes
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 409
Location: blackeye, outer rim

15 Oct 2009, 10:40 am

I did like this guy until I found out about his secret police and how political disidents tend to disappear. At least he's taking a stand I suppose, just glad I don't live there.

[edit] I read the article I got the above info from again and can say I totally misread it :oops: no disappearing going on as far as I know just normal dictator stuff.


_________________
read all the pamphlets and watch the tapes!

get all confused and then mix up the dates.


Last edited by racooneyes on 15 Oct 2009, 1:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tim_Tex
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 Jul 2004
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 46,039
Location: Houston, Texas

15 Oct 2009, 11:09 am

racooneyes wrote:
I did like this guy until I found out about his secret police and how political disidents tend to disappear. At least he's taking a stand I suppose, just glad I don't live there.


I would agree with you there.


_________________
Who’s better at math than a robot? They’re made of math!


Awesomelyglorious
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Dec 2005
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,316
Location: Omnipresent

15 Oct 2009, 12:42 pm

I am not so certain that authoritarian socialism is much different than Marxism.

Not only that, but why do we assume that there is a working system? We may say that the ideal goal is a working system, and that such a thing is possible, but I am not sure a stronger assumption, like the notion that a working system necessarily exists makes sense, especially given that we are already outside of the habitat for which our intuitions were made to correspond well to.



ZEGH8578
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Feb 2009
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,532

15 Oct 2009, 1:04 pm

¡Viva la revolución!
Image
¡Viva!


_________________
''In the world I see - you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center.''


xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 44
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,571

15 Oct 2009, 1:26 pm

There's no evidence that people are disappeared in Venezuela. I have never heard of this allegation and I am aware that they claimed that this happened in Belarus where one of these "disappeared" people was caught hiding out in, where else, London.

The disappearances done by men in Ford Falcons happened in countries run by Good in the great G v E struggle, according to what we are told.



TitusLucretiusCarus
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Jan 2009
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 518

15 Oct 2009, 2:49 pm

what the hell is authoritarian socialism? christ i'm a marxist and i've not a clue what that is. and how the hell is Chavez an authoritarian? the guy's a damn fool for being pally with Ahmadinejad but I can't fault him for too much else. and the whole suppression of opposition, disappearances thing gets thrown around about Cuba too but I'm yet to see anyone pull out a UNHRC report which says that anything even approaching that is or has been going on.



Jacoby
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 10 Dec 2007
Age: 28
Gender: Male
Posts: 14,367
Location: Permanently banned by power tripping mods lol this forum is trash

15 Oct 2009, 6:17 pm

yea Venezuela seems like such a nice place to live

not.



EC
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 23 Jul 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 260
Location: Denmark

15 Oct 2009, 7:48 pm

Venezuela is a great place to live if you're poor - You can get money from the government, as long as you stay poor. If you ever rise above poverty, you will realize how many problems the country has. Not as bad as Cuba, of course, but they've made some pretty bad moves.



Orwell
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Aug 2007
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,765
Location: Room 101

15 Oct 2009, 8:08 pm

DrFremdliebe wrote:
Capitalism, marxism, fascism have failed. It seems to me there is only one way out: authoritarian socialism. Venezuela, Chavez! Free healthcare, education and retirement for all.

Viva Chavez!

What is your metric of success? Most of the world is still capitalist and doing reasonably well (or at least better than they have done historically). Marxism has arguably never really gotten a chance to be implemented, thanks in large part to opposition from capitalists that force any socialist state to subvert its principles in order to survive (look at the USSR for a prime example). Fascism never failed under its own weight, rather, the entire rest of the world ganged up on the fascist states (Nazi Germany and Italy under Mussolini) and destroyed them militarily.

So it's hard to just outright declare that any of these three systems, much less all of them, have failed. You could argue that they are, for some reason or other, suboptimal, but there are more than enough problems with authoritarian socialism. One would have to be insane to point to Venezuela under Chavez as a model to be emulated.


_________________
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,156
Location: New Orleans, LA

15 Oct 2009, 8:13 pm

Orwell wrote:
DrFremdliebe wrote:
Capitalism, marxism, fascism have failed. It seems to me there is only one way out: authoritarian socialism. Venezuela, Chavez! Free healthcare, education and retirement for all.

Viva Chavez!

What is your metric of success? Most of the world is still capitalist and doing reasonably well (or at least better than they have done historically). Marxism has arguably never really gotten a chance to be implemented, thanks in large part to opposition from capitalists that force any socialist state to subvert its principles in order to survive (look at the USSR for a prime example). Fascism never failed under its own weight, rather, the entire rest of the world ganged up on the fascist states (Nazi Germany and Italy under Mussolini) and destroyed them militarily.

So it's hard to just outright declare that any of these three systems, much less all of them, have failed. You could argue that they are, for some reason or other, suboptimal, but there are more than enough problems with authoritarian socialism. One would have to be insane to point to Venezuela under Chavez as a model to be emulated.


"Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power."
Benito Mussolini

We're in a fascist state. It's hidden under a lot of freedom rhetoric that doesn't really apply anywhere in practice...but we're pretty fascist.


_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson


pbcoll
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Feb 2007
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,259
Location: the City of Palaces

15 Oct 2009, 8:31 pm

As someone familiar with Latin American history and politics, my thoughts are that Chávez is just the Venezuelan version of Luis Echeverría, the Mexican populist in the early 1970s - when he became President, Mexico's economy was growing by 8% (similar to current Chinese growth) and inflation was below that of the US, the so-called 'Mexican Miracle.' Despite the discovery of large oil deposits, Mexico has never truly recovered from the catastrophic administrations of Echeverría and "the dog" López Portillo, Echeverría's handpicked successor. But at least both Echeverría and López Portillo only served one term.
Chávez is entirely dependent on oil revenue, and Venezuela's output has been steadily declining; in terms of long-term financial responsibility, he is even worse than the Bush Republicans. Add in high inflation and rampant crime (Caracas has one of the highest murder rates in the world), and it isn't rocket science to see that it will end in tears. I think I might live to see Brazil and Chile become developed countries, but I'm pretty sure that I won't live to see Mexico or Venezuela become developed, and probably the next generation won't, either.


_________________
I am the steppenwolf that never learned to dance. (Sedaka)

El hombre es una bestia famélica, envidiosa e insaciable. (Francisco Tario)

I'm male by the way (yes, I know my avatar is misleading).


techstepgenr8tion
SomeRandomGuy
SomeRandomGuy

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 21,288
Location: The 27th Path of Peh.

15 Oct 2009, 10:24 pm

Everyone is individually game for different types and different amounts of trade-off to live within the bounds of civilization. Normatively though - the control of information and abduction of reality for agenda as well as a president who has no term limits and very little opposition that doesn't go to jail or voters who don't follow in his footsteps - most people seemingly aren't up for that kind of trade-off. As much as so many might hate capitalism and see misinformation or pollyana crap on the TV all day long (same - propaghanda) - we at least have room to maneuver and express opposition.



DrFremdliebe
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 13 Oct 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 15

16 Oct 2009, 2:00 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Everyone is individually game for different types and different amounts of trade-off to live within the bounds of civilization. Normatively though - the control of information and abduction of reality for agenda as well as a president who has no term limits and very little opposition that doesn't go to jail or voters who don't follow in his footsteps - most people seemingly aren't up for that kind of trade-off. As much as so many might hate capitalism and see misinformation or pollyana crap on the TV all day long (same - propaghanda) - we at least have room to maneuver and express opposition.


Room to maneuver, that is much use when you have no healthcare, education and retirement.


_________________
La loi, c'est moi


DrFremdliebe
Butterfly
Butterfly

User avatar

Joined: 13 Oct 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 15

16 Oct 2009, 3:02 am

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
I am not so certain that authoritarian socialism is much different than Marxism.

Not only that, but why do we assume that there is a working system? We may say that the ideal goal is a working system, and that such a thing is possible, but I am not sure a stronger assumption, like the notion that a working system necessarily exists makes sense, especially given that we are already outside of the habitat for which our intuitions were made to correspond well to.


Authoritarian socialism, Chavez-style, allows private ownership.


_________________
La loi, c'est moi