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ruennsheng
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25 Nov 2009, 3:21 am

May I know what do you feel about conscription? I am not drafted into the army and feel bad.


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ruveyn
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25 Nov 2009, 11:09 am

ruennsheng wrote:
May I know what do you feel about conscription? I am not drafted into the army and feel bad.


Then join voluntarily if you feel bad. I am against involuntary servitude.

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zer0netgain
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25 Nov 2009, 1:40 pm

ruveyn wrote:
ruennsheng wrote:
May I know what do you feel about conscription? I am not drafted into the army and feel bad.


Then join voluntarily if you feel bad. I am against involuntary servitude.

ruveyn


+1

It's easy to start wars when you can force people into your armies.



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25 Nov 2009, 5:48 pm

I dunno. I can see both sides of the coin. Part of me thinks there should be a draft when you're at war so that people from every walk of life equally has to serve. Not just the poor minorities and military families. I think the country would be a lot more hesitant to go to war if that were the case. Then again I don't think the government should be able to order you into service like that either. I think in general the volunteer army is preferable but if we're ever in a major war again like WWII again there should be a draft.



NeantHumain
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25 Nov 2009, 10:23 pm

Since I am morally opposed to war*, it's a simple matter of deduction to find that I would also be opposed to the draft.

* I will concede that arguments can be made for foreign intervention to prevent genocide or other crimes against humanity and for defending against an invading army. Nevertheless, conscripting someone against their conscience is an obvious moral wrong.



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26 Nov 2009, 3:19 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
Since I am morally opposed to war*, it's a simple matter of deduction to find that I would also be opposed to the draft.

* I will concede that arguments can be made for foreign intervention to prevent genocide or other crimes against humanity and for defending against an invading army. Nevertheless, conscripting someone against their conscience is an obvious moral wrong.

+1


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27 Nov 2009, 10:15 pm

In my opinion, if you have to forcibly draft people to keep fighting a war, then it's not a war worth fighting. If it was worth fighting, people would join on their own.



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29 Nov 2009, 7:36 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
It's easy to start wars when you can force people into your armies.
On the contrary, if those people can vote then there will be consequences. Anyone willingly joining professional military forces accepts war is a possibility and will likely only be a little disgruntled. Anyone legally required to conscript against their wishes will most likely be absolutely against any conflict if there is any chance they will fight in it.

Most people in Britain objected to the Iraq war yet the Labour Party was re-elected for a third time even after pursuing an unpopular war. This is because the Iraq war, while being morally objectionable to many people, actually almost never directly inconveniences us. Were conscription enforced, vast swathes of the population would risk being directly inconvenienced by ending up in a warzone. Democratic government must think twice about foreign affairs if conscription is enforced.


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Last edited by oppositedirection on 29 Nov 2009, 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

John_Browning
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29 Nov 2009, 8:37 pm

Cyanide wrote:
In my opinion, if you have to forcibly draft people to keep fighting a war, then it's not a war worth fighting. If it was worth fighting, people would join on their own.

What about WWII? Would you not agree that it was a cause worth fighting for even though it required conscription?


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ruveyn
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30 Nov 2009, 2:52 am

ruennsheng wrote:
May I know what do you feel about conscription? I am not drafted into the army and feel bad.


If you are physical qualified and legally qualified, then sign up. That way you won't feel so bad.

In any case conscription is involuntary servitude, and a form of slavery and I am very much opposed to it. It is bad enough that we need armies and it is bad enough that the government has the power to tax the people to provide an army. Enslaving young adults to fight against their will is just plain wrong.

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30 Nov 2009, 4:57 am

Unless your a seiged country of 7 million like, say, Israel - conscription is a terrible idea. There's a good reason why the U.S. military doesn't do it; very expensive, millions of hours in training expenses go into people who don't want to be there, many of the personality types forced in are counterproductive and even destructive to military operation.

That said though I give enormous amounts of respect for people who are willing to defend and serve. My own understanding of self though; chronic insomnia (can't sleep when I choose to), easily confused when a lot of stimuli come at me, terrible visual processing and coordination, executive functioning challenges, naturally about as aggressive as the average computer geek - it flat out wouldn't work.



ruennsheng
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30 Nov 2009, 11:14 am

Oh well, my country isn't seiged but I would love to serve in my country's armed forces. It's just that my autism sometimes overcomes the best of my intentions as I get easily frustrated by interpersonal conflicts.


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ruveyn
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30 Nov 2009, 4:50 pm

ruennsheng wrote:
Oh well, my country isn't seiged but I would love to serve in my country's armed forces. It's just that my autism sometimes overcomes the best of my intentions as I get easily frustrated by interpersonal conflicts.


Do what I did. Go into making weapons for the warriors. That is purely technical and you can increase your leverage in inflicting fatalities on the enemy by several orders of magnitude. I used to work on nuclear weapons and guidance systems for cruise missiles. My missiles have killed many enemies of the country so I have lots of scalps on my belt indirectly.

I would have preferred being a warrior, but I have chronic asthma and was turned down by the army and the air force. So I did the next best thing: I became a techno-killer.

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04 Dec 2009, 7:55 pm

While it sounds good, ruveyn, it's absolutely impossible in ruennsheng's case. ruennsheng, like I, hail from Singapore and just because we have Islamic nations to our north and south (Malaysia and Indonesia respectively), our government said, OMG, we're Israel now, and implemented National Service of compulsory 2 years for all males in this country.

For myself, I had undiagnosed Asperger's and was unaware of it. The first six months of my time in the army was absolutely horrendous as I was continuously punished for what was perceived to be deliberately insubordinate behavior, until I was crippled by a stress-related headache from those unhappy six months. I saw a doctor and got myself diagnosed, and while the rest of my 2 years were significantly better once I learnt how to cope, it still was an unhappy period for me.

Also, we have no choice nor say whatsoever in what we can do in the army. They're based on several arbitrary factors, such as eugenics (family history), what ranks our fathers were and what vocation they were to determine our security clearances. They then make us sit for an aptitude test and all we can do is to blindly hope that we don't end up becoming riflemen.

As for myself, I was poking someone I knew in the manpower side of things and found that I was a Signals Operator by the virtue of my father having been a 1st Lieutenant sniper when it was his turn. It's odd, because they decided my 'trustworthiness' based on my eugenics, and not asking what my personal motivations were. Who knows, if I could easily give away any sensitive information that lands onto my hands (and plenty of it did because of my vocation)?

Those vocation allocations are also arbitrarily decided based on race and religion. For instance, because of the perceived Islamic threat from overseas, there are no Malays (who are 99.5% of the time, Muslims) in the Air Force, or Commando and Armor formations. There are no Malay Signal Operators. Chinese intelligence analysts are made to learn Bahasa Melayu (the Malay language) to read the newspapers of our apparently hostile neighbors. Our government deems the Malays (the indigenous race) untrustworthy of sensitive positions and allocates them overwhelmingly in logistics and cannon fodder infantry positions. The very top-heavy Army in Singapore is overwhelmingly led by the majority ethnic Chinese group, and it was considered a big deal when only very recently, a Malay officer made it to General rank, about 45 years after our declaration of Independence and our commitment to racial equality.

It's not just this facet of inequality that our conscription faces, but also in how Singaporeans who were born here are treated and expected to defend the country, yet fresh immigrations are granted absolute freedom within this country without the responsibilities of defending this country, and are free to participate in national pride parades back in their home countries without repercussion.

Conscription is more of an issue over "it's morally wrong", because it's also a useful tool of social engineering to ensure an endless continuity of an obedient population drilled and schooled into believing that their superiors are always right and to question their orders and word was to invite the harshest punishment possible. That sort of attitude translates into civilian life and reinforces itself in the upbringing of fresh generations.



ruveyn
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04 Dec 2009, 10:28 pm

Jacoby wrote:
I dunno. I can see both sides of the coin. Part of me thinks there should be a draft when you're at war so that people from every walk of life equally has to serve. Not just the poor minorities and military families. I think the country would be a lot more hesitant to go to war if that were the case. Then again I don't think the government should be able to order you into service like that either. I think in general the volunteer army is preferable but if we're ever in a major war again like WWII again there should be a draft.


do you want to fight next to someone whose heart is not in the battle? When you fight, you depend on your buddies to cover your back. If they are not focused your life is endangered. I don't want anyone in the army who does not want to be there.

ruveyn